2024-MAR-01 Info: Check out Songwriting Competition 079 if you're into "Synthwave" music making.

SONGWRITING COMPETITION - SWC055 March 2022 - Winners announced

Thematic Songwriting Competition - recurrence: monthly
Olli H
Posts: 207
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2017 16:08 CET
Location: Finland

Re: SONGWRITING COMPETITION - SWC055 March 2022 - results in preparation

#41

Post by Olli H »

becsei_gyorgy wrote:
Sat Apr 02, 2022 08:02 CEST
Yes, I understand what you mean, and I accept it (I saw that In a previous competition, you have already given 0 points to someone else if the vocals were not original in the sense that the vocals came from samples).
I’m sorry because even though I haven’t done this much in the past, I’ll do it more often in the future. It is not always the case that a singer is at hand, and due to the shortness of time in this competition, there is often no time for proper cooperation with a singer (although I have had this several times before). Anyway, this is a completely common way to make (original) music (songs). Especially in dance music. Many of the songs on the Beatport TOP100 list are made from such vocal samples. Quite big names also use this. And believe me, it's not at all as easy as you might think at first.
I understand your position, but since the rules don't forbid it here either, maybe I'll apply it another time - if at all...
I get the point! I guess it means that in some genres the main point is not the originality of the melody line but the new creative way or contex how it is used.

But still, in this case we are not in the dance floor but we are talking about a special SongWriting competition, where votes are given by other contestants. And in this case, as you take this up, I guess, you want question my voting logic to diminish some points if the melody line has been taken from samples.

So naturally I feel I must defend my logic. This SongWriting competition has this kind of rules: "Please no cover version / rearrangement / remix from somebody else. Or in other words: content that you don't the hold rights to (like "a found" a capella, or "resampled" parts from other songs without drastic mangling)"

I don't know what is the correct way to interpret that line in this case, but so far and currently, and according to my current knowledge, to me it feels quite justified within this competitions voting process to take some points away from submission if the melody line is from samples.
User avatar
A Future in Noise
Posts: 285
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2018 09:26 CET
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Contact:

Re: SONGWRITING COMPETITION - SWC055 March 2022 - results in preparation

#42

Post by A Future in Noise »

Olli H wrote:
Sat Apr 02, 2022 18:52 CEST
A Future in Noise wrote:
Fri Apr 01, 2022 14:50 CEST
in Sweden we have had artists like Vreeswijk and Åkerström, but they didn't sound like this!
I'll certainly will check Vreeswijk and Åkerström. Thanks for tip. Actually I have listened very much Lisa Ekdalh. She belongs to my favorites.
In Swedish we have the word 'visa'. If I let bab.la or Google Translate translate, it's just 'song' (or 'lay'). And a 'visa' certainly is a song, but it is a certain type of song. One might say that those who sing this kind of songs often are called troubadours – and that word exists in English! Does that make things clearer?

Now I actually found a definition of 'visa' on Swedish Wikipedia. If I let Google Translate translate, it will be like this:

“A 'visa' is a strophic poem, often with simple language, which is intended to be performed to a melody, without or with simple accompaniment. 'Visor' (=plural) are found as a part of almost all cultures' folk music, and in Sweden there has been a rich tradition of songs also in popular music – folk pop.”

Now, I did not mean that your entry is a pure 'visa', but that it has a certain influence in that direction (maybe a bit like Lisa Ekdahl).

The real Swedish 'vis'-troubadour giants (because now we have to sort this out thoroughly) are probably Evert Taube (1890-1976) and Carl Michael Bellman (1740-1795). And I actually found one of Bellman's songs from 1771 (he wrote the lyrics; the melody was stolen from France) sung by Fred Åkerström, whom I mentioned earlier. Åkerström lived between 1937-1985. (Cornelis Vreeswijk, whom I also mentioned earlier, was a super celebrity in the 60s and 70s.)

But here you can hear Åkerström's interpretation of Bellman, if you would like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPhSiRb5vb0
becsei_gyorgy
Posts: 171
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 19:55 CET
Location: Szeged, Hungary

Re: SONGWRITING COMPETITION - SWC055 March 2022 - results in preparation

#43

Post by becsei_gyorgy »

Of course, everyone has the right to score what they want, and I have nothing wrong with that :)

But I think you completely misunderstood the referenced rule:
Olli H wrote:
Sat Apr 02, 2022 20:30 CEST
This SongWriting competition has this kind of rules: "Please no cover version / rearrangement / remix from somebody else. Or in other words: content that you don't the hold rights to (like "a found" a capella, or "resampled" parts from other songs without drastic mangling)"
Me and others have paid for these vocals (as if you were paying a singer), and I have all the licenses and rights to use them to create a new, original piece. That's what they're made of.
These vocals (and use of vocals) are "no cover version", nor "rearrangement" or "a remix from somebody else". Are neither "a found a capella" nor a "resampled parts from other songs".
Legally, it’s exactly the same as having paid a singer for sing the song.

I know of course, that you doubt the creative part in this case. I can recommend that you try once out which one is easier? Playing a melody line with your fingers over an existing chord progression, or is it easier to insert different vocal parts (since you almost never have a complete one-track vocal in this case either)? :smile: I think both have their difficulties and both require some creativity.

Once again: I have nothing wrong with your evaluation :whiteflag: , only in the competition a few months ago - I saw the same thing you wrote for someone else’s song then - you had this problem alone and I thought I’d ask you why you think so.
becsei_gyorgy
Posts: 171
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 19:55 CET
Location: Szeged, Hungary

Re: SONGWRITING COMPETITION - SWC055 March 2022 - results in preparation

#44

Post by becsei_gyorgy »

Olli H wrote:
Sat Apr 02, 2022 18:52 CEST

But in this one I was deliberately after a bit darker sound, as introspective energies typically seem to abide in deeper frequencies and not so much in higher frequencies. Along with the forementioned Bruce, I used also some darker songs of Billie Eilish as my reference.
Yes, you’re right, on the one hand billie eilish is an excellent reference for a darker sound, on the other hand it would be might be enough to take the bass a few decibels back a bit, and then your high-end deficit would no longer be so striking.
Olli H
Posts: 207
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2017 16:08 CET
Location: Finland

Re: SONGWRITING COMPETITION - SWC055 March 2022 - results in preparation

#45

Post by Olli H »

A Future in Noise wrote:
Sat Apr 02, 2022 21:14 CEST
Now I actually found a definition of 'visa' on Swedish Wikipedia. If I let Google Translate translate, it will be like this:

“A 'visa' is a strophic poem, often with simple language, which is intended to be performed to a melody, without or with simple accompaniment. 'Visor' (=plural) are found as a part of almost all cultures' folk music, and in Sweden there has been a rich tradition of songs also in popular music – folk pop.”

Now, I did not mean that your entry is a pure 'visa', but that it has a certain influence in that direction (maybe a bit like Lisa Ekdahl).
In Finnish language there's a word "viisu" which is borrowed from swedish word "visa". It's not so much used word here but there's on special use for it. "Eurovision Song Contest" is simply and shortly "Euroviisut" in Finnish. That would translate as "Eurovisor" to swedish. And as "visa" is special type of swedish song, that alone explains to me why Swedes are always so damn succesful in Eurovisor (and we Finns are typically among the last ones): you have always a "home field advantage". (Although another reason for that success may be related to the fact that music production skills in Sweden are probably the best in the world, I still prefer my explanation.)
A Future in Noise wrote:
Sat Apr 02, 2022 21:14 CEST
The real Swedish 'vis'-troubadour giants (because now we have to sort this out thoroughly) are probably Evert Taube (1890-1976) and Carl Michael Bellman (1740-1795). And I actually found one of Bellman's songs from 1771 (he wrote the lyrics; the melody was stolen from France) sung by Fred Åkerström, whom I mentioned earlier. Åkerström lived between 1937-1985. (Cornelis Vreeswijk, whom I also mentioned earlier, was a super celebrity in the 60s and 70s.)
I just listened both Cornelis and Åkerström, and both sound superb and soulful, amd most important, they seem to be splendid text writers. I'm sure I'll be spending hours with both of them. I think may have seen a film of Cornelis life.
Olli H
Posts: 207
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2017 16:08 CET
Location: Finland

Re: SONGWRITING COMPETITION - SWC055 March 2022 - results in preparation

#46

Post by Olli H »

becsei_gyorgy wrote:
Sat Apr 02, 2022 23:13 CEST
Me and others have paid for these vocals (as if you were paying a singer), and I have all the licenses and rights to use them to create a new, original piece. That's what they're made of.
These vocals (and use of vocals) are "no cover version", nor "rearrangement" or "a remix from somebody else". Are neither "a found a capella" nor a "resampled parts from other songs".
Legally, it’s exactly the same as having paid a singer for sing the song.
If others and especially staff (rule creator) agrees that the use of melody samples fulfills the requirement "All entries submitted must be original songs" I surely will not take up this issue again. I surely do admit that I have my shortcomings when it comes to anything that is modern. :)
becsei_gyorgy wrote:
Sat Apr 02, 2022 23:13 CEST
I know of course, that you doubt the creative part in this case. I can recommend that you try once out which one is easier? Playing a melody line with your fingers over an existing chord progression, or is it easier to insert different vocal parts (since you almost never have a complete one-track vocal in this case either)? :smile: I think both have their difficulties and both require some creativity.
Actually I have no doubts that arrangement and production phases are immensely important and creative process. So many "good songs" die prematurely during an unsuccessful production operation. And vice versa there are surely plenty of hugely interesting productions that are based on bad or empty songs.
User avatar
Mister Fox
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 3111
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 16:15 CEST
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: SONGWRITING COMPETITION - SWC055 March 2022 - results in preparation

#47

Post by Mister Fox »

I need to do a more deep-dive with the conversation, same goes for more in-depth listening. Been busy the last couple of days.

But since sample packs are allowed to use, and a lot of them have vocal lines/licks, etc - same goes for choir samples - why should we not be allowed use them? I mean, this is why we list the tools we've used. An acapella, as in "stripped from another track" (an example would be hip hop vocals from a track you don't own/created, laying it on top of your music) is a whole different story.


On a different sidenote:
Unfortunately, @J.Ruegg did not post any additional feedback within the given extra time-frame. His entry is therefore sadly out of the scoresheet. I will try to get the results done by Monday.
User avatar
Mister Fox
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 3111
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 16:15 CEST
Location: Berlin, Germany

SONGWRITING COMPETITION - SWC055 March 2022 - results in preparation

#48

Post by Mister Fox »

A short update on the results:

I have to apologize for the delay yet again. I am done with the statistics and the results. I even invested some extra time to run every song through various songkey analysis tools to see if something is off.

Unfortunately, I have two participants where the final score results in tie, and that one can't be broken. In accordance with the game mechanics, this is where I have to step in. However, I do need 1-2 more extra days for that specific task.

Apologies for the inconvenience - I hope to close out SWC055 by Friday evening.
User avatar
A Future in Noise
Posts: 285
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2018 09:26 CET
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Contact:

Re: SONGWRITING COMPETITION - SWC055 March 2022 - Submissions until 24-03-2022 23:59 UTC+1/CET

#49

Post by A Future in Noise »

Mister Fox wrote:
Sun Mar 06, 2022 14:08 CET
You really do have a tendency to over-complicate things with every Songwriting Competition, or you're very ambitious. :thinking:
Yeah.
User avatar
A Future in Noise
Posts: 285
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2018 09:26 CET
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Contact:

Re: SONGWRITING COMPETITION - SWC055 March 2022 - results in preparation

#50

Post by A Future in Noise »

becsei_gyorgy wrote:
Sat Apr 02, 2022 08:02 CEST
Unfortunately the whole irony and giggle didn’t come through completely for everyone ...
Why did you want to be ironic? But of course, Victor Borge wasn't too bad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtDX1Vl-Jxk
Post Reply