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Songwriting Competition - General Gossip Thread

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Arelem
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Re: Songwriting Competition - General Gossip Thread

#11

Post by Arelem »

Hello All,

I posted this over on the Discord but I wanted to post it here as well in case there are contestants that do not use Discord or follow over there (I didn't know there was a discord until a few days ago).

I wanted to open up/ask about the discussion from October's songwriting contest about using 'stock' vocals.
I personally don't see anything wrong with it. Mister Fox did compare the effort of writing and recording your own vocals to that of simply using someone else's, and I understand that point, but ultimately it's about making a good song. I guess it depends. Is the point to be someone who does everything from start to finish, or can it be someone who is just a good music producer? Most everyone has their weak points and supplementing those weak points isn't an area of concern for me. For example: some people in the SWC are great guitar players. Does that mean it isn't ok to use a guitar VST or sample because it's potentially less effort? Same could go for any part of a song ie drums, flute, synth and so on. I think of vocals as an instrument the same as any other. It's a part of the music.

Also, I think it could give good vocalists an unfair advantage. Of course, vocals aren't required, but in most instances, a track with vocals is going to have more appeal than one without. Just look at popular music. Even EDM songs struggle to find mainstream success without some sort of vocal.

Just my 2 cents on the matter.

-Arelem
Dear David John

Re: Songwriting Competition - General Gossip Thread

#12

Post by Dear David John »

Arelem wrote:
Sat Nov 05, 2022 00:09 CET
Hello All,

I posted this over on the Discord but I wanted to post it here as well in case there are contestants that do not use Discord or follow over there (I didn't know there was a discord until a few days ago).

I wanted to open up/ask about the discussion from October's songwriting contest about using 'stock' vocals.
I personally don't see anything wrong with it. Mister Fox did compare the effort of writing and recording your own vocals to that of simply using someone else's, and I understand that point, but ultimately it's about making a good song. I guess it depends. Is the point to be someone who does everything from start to finish, or can it be someone who is just a good music producer? Most everyone has their weak points and supplementing those weak points isn't an area of concern for me. For example: some people in the SWC are great guitar players. Does that mean it isn't ok to use a guitar VST or sample because it's potentially less effort? Same could go for any part of a song ie drums, flute, synth and so on. I think of vocals as an instrument the same as any other. It's a part of the music.

Also, I think it could give good vocalists an unfair advantage. Of course, vocals aren't required, but in most instances, a track with vocals is going to have more appeal than one without. Just look at popular music. Even EDM songs struggle to find mainstream success without some sort of vocal.

Just my 2 cents on the matter.

-Arelem
Hi Arelem,

I do have to agree with the Mr Fox on this one, although his comments might have been fueled by my comments.
The reason I joined the SWC instead of the REMIX challenge is directly due to it being a songwriting challenge. This debate has spanned centuries and can easily be snubbed by asking the simple question. Did the composer "write" the song?

At the end of the day if its been held as "making music" then fine, I love that, the world needs more music. However in terms of a competition based forum such as this, to say that vocalist get an "unfair" advantage is pretty wayward. In my mind the advantage is COMPLETELY fair. Its a songwriting competition not a remix competition. If I went on to X Factor and stood on stage with a boom box, pushed play, and it belted Adels new top single. could I be disheartened when I didn't get the golden ticket? No ways. Unless my talent was the way I pushed the play button on the boom box. Now if the competition was revolved around how one pushes play on a boom box then yes my disgruntled behaviour would be warranted, but its not. One might say, "yes but I made it blend so well into my instrumental". Yes, but did you ?? Who produced that vocal originally? Who Eq'd that vocal to its world class standard originally?

I do hope you are able to see this from this view as well and I am far from attacking you. As a singer and a very active competitor is many forums I do see this come up from time to time. Again, it can simply be answered with, "did you write it"?. SWC - SONG WRITING COMPETETION

Even though I am sure my comments are what fueled this line of discussion I do fully stand by Mr Fox on this. I have watched him put hours upon hours into this forum and mostly get a lot of unneeded backlash.

Hope everyone is having a lovely weekend.
Arelem
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Re: Songwriting Competition - General Gossip Thread

#13

Post by Arelem »

Let me just start but saying that I don't feel attacked. We are discussing our opinions on the matter and it's fine if not everyone agrees. With that being said, is David Guetta not a good songwriter/artist because the vocals to Titanium were written and performed by Sia? Actually, most vocals in EDM are written and performed by someone else. I don't think that invalidates the work of those artists. The only reason I say it's an unfair advantage is because it's one aspect of the process that is being looked down upon or banned, somewhat arbitrarily. What's the difference really between using a vocal and using any other sample? Even sequencing a drum pattern from other samples is pretty comparable. You didn't create those drum sounds yourself just as you didn't create those vocals. (I'm using 'you' figuratively) It's about the arrangement and how you use those things to make something new and different that makes it your own, and in my opinion, that is songwriting. Is a remix not songwriting, or a cover? I honestly don't know but maybe. Jonny Cash's hurt is very different from Nine Inch Nails' version. How about a duo where one produces and one writes and sings? Is it better because the vocals weren't downloaded? I'm not sure. So why ban only that one thing?

Edit:
I thought of another point I wanted to make. Can you write a song without vocals? I think everyone would agree that you can. If I added a 'stock' vocal on top of it, does it suddenly become a song I didn't write?
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Re: Songwriting Competition - General Gossip Thread

#14

Post by KukoBass »

Arelem wrote:
Sat Nov 05, 2022 04:54 CET
Can you write a song without vocals? I think everyone would agree that you can. If I added a 'stock' vocal on top of it, does it suddenly become a song I didn't write?
I agree.

I see that it could be problematic to use of samples in a songwriting contest is, if the use of premade samples (not just vocal samples) leads to the point where the music /song is written by the author of the sample, not the contestant.
An example would be Eminem's "My name is", which is so much based on the sample from Labi Siffre's "I got the" that Siffre didn't get only a co-writer's credit but used Eminem's dependency on the sample to influence the lyrics: He refused to clear the sample until sexist and homophobic lyrics were removed from the song. After all, I would consider this Siffre's music, but still Eminem's song.

As long as the contestants are open about the way they incorporated samples, I think that even excessive use of samples is OK.
Not everyone is a great guitar player, piano player or singer. The use of samples can make up for that. Where is the difference if I use premade samples from collaborating with a musician or singer who write their parts? In both cases, I use parts written by others for my song. The only difference is that in one case, I bought the parts from a stranger.

If we think the contestant was lazy and did not "make music" in the spirit of the contest, we are able to vote accordingly. :baytins:
I think that is consistent enough for a songwriting challenge.
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Re: Songwriting Competition - General Gossip Thread

#15

Post by KukoBass »

Dear David John wrote:
Sat Nov 05, 2022 03:49 CET

The reason I joined the SWC instead of the REMIX challenge is directly due to it being a songwriting challenge. This debate has spanned centuries and can easily be snubbed by asking the simple question. Did the composer "write" the song?
At the end of the day, that is the question that has to be answered and should go into the votes.

I'm not sure if I understood your argument right. In my opinion, vocals are to be treated as any other "instrument": Do they add to the song?

I think that contestants who write their own lyrics and sing them or get them sung usually have accomplished more than contestants who only write instrumental songs. I adore people who can do this, and I don't feel treated unfairly if my instrumental song gets fewer votes.

After all, every instrument, vocal, sample, midi file, chord progression, etc. is just a tool to get a message across, to evoke a feeling in the listener. And I'd prefer the contestants to be able to use every tool they have, because the music benefits from this. If we wanted total comparability, we'd have to enter our songs as sheet music so that the instrument libraries, midi files and samples available to a contestant and the production of a song can't distort the impression of the song itself. And I prefer to listen to music instead of reading it. :phones:
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A Future in Noise
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Re: SONGWRITING COMPETITION - SWC064 December 2022 - Submissions until 24-12-2022 23:59 UTC+1/CET

#16

Post by A Future in Noise »

Hello Mister Fox!

Off course you can move this to the gossip section, if you want to.

You often mention the importance of checking the final mix in a number of different speakers and headphones. I can see how you think, but I don't feel very tempted to do like that (aside from not wanting to use only headphones).

When I work with the final mix I use the best equipment I have. Studio monitors from Yamaha (their cheapest) and a sub woofer that is originally from my HiFi stuff, but still good. The reason is that I want people who are interested in music and also have high-quality headphones and speakers to get the best possible sound if they listen to my creations (here my limited knowledge of mixing is a hindrance, but that's another matter).

Other people, the ones who buy cheap junk to use as listening devices, why should I care what they might think? I can probably use arbitrary EQ and reverb settings, they still won't notice a difference. Many people don't even know what stereo is!

And isn't every tweak away from the studio settings, towards settings better suited for small speakers or cheap earbuds, a compromise that inevitably will affect the sound from high end equipment in a non desirable way?
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Mister Fox
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SONGWRITING COMPETITION - SWC064 December 2022 - Submissions until 24-12-2022 23:59 UTC+1/CET

#17

Post by Mister Fox »

I've moved the previous post from SWC064, as this is an overall technical question, or statement rather.


A Future in Noise wrote:
Tue Dec 13, 2022 15:43 CET
You often mention the importance of checking the final mix in a number of different speakers and headphones. I can see how you think, but I don't feel very tempted to do like that (aside from not wanting to use only headphones).
Aside from you being highly impolite towards other users and actually also our listening base (available equipment/listening environment), and I kindly ask you to never do that again, there is a reason for my given feedback from SWC063, and why I bring this topic up over and over.


The majority of music is listened to on the wildest range of equipment. Most notably while commuting, or while working at home (work, chores, cooking, etc). So it's car speakers, smartphones, kitchen radios, and especially earbuds. All of them far from being neutral in terms of frequency response.

You can have the best equipment there is, but your material still needs to translate to every playback medium possible to be consistently enjoyable, not just for one type of listening. It also separates a good mix from an outstanding mix if you know how to pull this off.


If you don't want any feedback on that topic, or follow-up on that, that is your prerogative.
But in this case, please no complaints in the future why your mix might not have "made it".
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Songwriting Competition - General Gossip Thread

#18

Post by Mister Fox »

Update:
The topic of "recorded vocals vs vocal samples" has now been addressed in the following news post:

Songwriting Competition - restriction on vocal sample usage (December 2022)
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Re: Songwriting Competition - General Gossip Thread

#19

Post by A Future in Noise »

When I mentioned people using cheap earbuds, I was thinking of a large part of the 8 billion people who populate the earth.

My most important question was the closing one.
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Re: Songwriting Competition - General Gossip Thread

#20

Post by A Future in Noise »

Some of the participants have a little sign under their names. Saying things like "wild card use x1" or "Backer". What does it mean? Are there more signs than the ones I've mentioned?
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