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Mix Challenge - General Gossip Thread

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Mister Fox
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Mix Challenge - General Gossip Thread

#1

Post by Mister Fox »

Welcome to the General Gossip thread for the Mix Challenge.


Want to talk about things that came up during the game that are a bit off-topic, neither are they really fitting for Production Techniques?
Got a question beforehand that is not covered in the Rules or FAQ?

Then this thread is for you. Please type away. :educate:


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By joining the Mix(ing) Challenge, you agree to adhere to the given Rules and Guidelines (see post #6).

This thread is only for general feedback and constructive criticism, talk "overall game" topics (slight off-topic), ask questions if anything is unclear / not explained in each game thread already, and/or not covered in the FAQ, etc.

Any form of (ongoing) complaints / destructive criticism / harassment (e.g. "staff lecturing") will result in an instant delete of your post without any further warning. If you continue to push the matter, then only one formal warning will be addressed, after that your account will be banned. Please keep things civil.

This thread will be reset on a regular basis. (currently: every August)


Status: 2021-JAN-03 - thread reset
_StillBorn
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Mix Challenge - General Gossip Thread

#2

Post by _StillBorn »

Mister Fox wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 05:22 CEST
maximum allowed loudness values (see Rule Book - post #6).
https://mix-challenge.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7#p7 wrote:It is highly recommended to work with a certain reference level
So no rules about loudness only recommendations?

EDIT nevermind, there was more regarding loudness further down the big ass manual you guys have created for submitting a mix.
the final mixdown / export must not undershoot -24 LUFS ILk (Integrated), neither exceed -16 LUFS ILk (Integrated), while the maximum digital signal strength must not exceed -1.0 dBTP (True Peak). Recommended measurement specifications are ITU-R BS.1770-2+ (ideally ITU-R BS.1770-4) or EBU R-128. Tolerances are taken into consideration (see Addendum: Statistics Sheet and Wild Card Mechanic)
Thats a crazy amount of rules. There must have been tons of situations with disqualified tracks (and frustrated mixers spending x amount of hours on a mix no one will listen to) due to this.

I would suggest making a more condensed set of rules (currently over 5500 words / over 25000 characters) - use it if you can.
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Jorgeelalto
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Re: Mix Challenge - General Gossip Thread

#3

Post by Jorgeelalto »

I think it'd be cool to build a small web app to check the loudness of a WAV file directly on mix-challenge.com, that way we can all play by the same rules for sure -- even if the meter is not the most accurate in the world. I've been thinking about this for a while, shouldn't be THAT complicated... Might be a cool summer project :)

Edit: There has been problems with loudness rules in these games for as long as I remember, and I'm with you that sometimes they are a bit obtuse. This could be an easy way to level the playing field.
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Mister Fox
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Mix Challenge - General Gossip Thread

#4

Post by Mister Fox »

A quick update on this topic

_StillBorn wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 20:38 CEST
So no rules about loudness only recommendations?
As you're probably aware at this point, there have been updates to the Rule Books for further clarification.

For the Mix(ing) Challenge:
The "recommendation" is in regards to work-levels while mixing (e.g. -20 dBFS = 0 VU, or -18dBFS = 0 VU)
The actual "upper limit" for finished mix entries have been set to -16,0 LUFS ILk max, and -1,00 dBTP max (status: 2019)


_StillBorn wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 20:38 CEST
Thats a crazy amount of rules. There must have been tons of situations with disqualified tracks (and frustrated mixers spending x amount of hours on a mix no one will listen to) due to this.
I am sorry to read this. However, every competition out there has an extensive set of rules and guidelines, to cover all possible scenarios and eventualities. This is mandatory to prevent Interpretation and (in certain cases even endless / unnecessary) arguments. This way, everyone is on the same level regarding game mechanics.


_StillBorn wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 20:38 CEST
I would suggest making a more condensed set of rules (currently over 5500 words / over 25000 characters) - use it if you can.
Due to time constraints, it was impossible to me to to release a "TL;DR Rules - sub 500 words edition" prior to MC087 / August 2022. Even then, the TL;DR Rules will still direct you to the more extensive set of Rules and Guidelines.

As announced in the newsletter (CW32 / August 2022), I hope to have this handled by the end of the week. This will also be part of a bigger update regarding game thread optimizations.
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Mix Challenge - General Gossip Thread

#5

Post by Mister Fox »

Jorgeelalto wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 16:01 CEST
I think it'd be cool to build a small web app to check the loudness of a WAV file directly on mix-challenge.com, that way we can all play by the same rules for sure -- even if the meter is not the most accurate in the world. I've been thinking about this for a while, shouldn't be THAT complicated... Might be a cool summer project :)
I appreciate the effort.
But I can already tell you, that I do not know how to properly implement this, neither how to maintain this app / widget.


I try to update the old "How to: Loudness Normalization (Manually and Automated)" thread in Production Techniques and / or ideally turn it into a "Mix Challenge - Addendum" thread. However, time is always a thing. I can only do so much with x-amount of hours throughout the day.



:arrow: I do know of (currently) four online analysis tools regarding LUFS checks.

However, one of them is not as helpful as one might expect, and I can therefore not recommend it. Two are behind a User Account (one feels pay-walled even?). There is really only one free variant for the time being. But I can't tell you for how long, and it's a bit limited.


The four options are:
  • Youlean Software - File Loudness Meter -- this is the only variant without a needed login. It uses the ITU-R BS.1770-4 standard, but only shows LUFS (with an offset of up to +-0,2LU, it is a "Beta" after all)
  • pureMix - LUFS Analyzer -- locked behind a user account. With the available presets, I assume it is also based upon ITU-R BS.1770-4 or EBU R-128 (S2). The "TRUEDYN-I" value actually seems to be "PLR" (Peak-to-Loudness range) according to their Youtube quick overview
  • Finalizer (by TC Electronic) - Online Analyzer -- locked behind a user account, this has been around since 2019, but it flew under the radar (hah!). If the online analyzer works the same as the app, it's ITU-R BS.1770-4 Loudness compliant
  • MeterPlugs - Loudness Penalty -- the least usable offering, as this only shows "Offsets" to certain streaming platforms. And really only to those that "loudness normalize" on playback. I can really not recommend this if you want to know the actual values of your mix
I need some time for further testing these online tools.

I definitely trust TC Electronic, since their Radar Meter was one of the first and most accurate Loudness Analysis tools on the market - not sure what to think of their "mandatory login" though. I have similar positive words for Youlean Software - among the "youngest project", but the attention to detail while keeping an eye on affordability is just an unbeatable combo. Also, the online analysis tool is fast, without any frills.


There are software options with drag and drop features. But I do need to do additional testing. And as of this moment, there are really only two low-budget plugins I can trust. One is free (HOFA 4U Meter) and one is commercial (Youlean Loudness Meter Pro). There might be more options that currently escape my mind. But again, this needs testing, documenting and then updating threads. All of which need time.
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