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If I understood correctly (because my english sucks ), the problems you are talking about can be solved with a crossfeed plugin. It's true that without this it's complicated to have a correct stereo image and it becomes complicated to place the elements in space. I've only been mixing with headphones for years and I don't feel like I'm making big mistakes on my instrument placements in space and when I check on the speakers or in the car, I don't have any surprises. But maybe I'm completely wrong and in this case I'll be happy to learn it to try to improve this point.
In any case, it's an interesting topic. And we also have to consider that more and more people are listening with in-ear/headphones.
Hi Drannob,
I only describe what I heard. But your mix don't have these problems, to my ears.
By the way, I don't just want to mix for headphones, I want it to sound good everywhere.
Not sure if a simple crossfeed is enough, best bet would be a binaural simulator of virtual speakers on the monitor-only fx chain, and such plugins do exist on the market of course.
I've always hated room simulation plugins, to me it sounds like a bad room reverb with an EQ that sounds like speakers. I haven't tried all the solutions but all the ones I've tried gave me that feeling. Some people manage to mix very well with it so it's not that bad but for me I really prefer a simple crossfeed plugin.
Hi Drannob,
I only describe what I heard. But your mix don't have these problems, to my ears.
By the way, I don't just want to mix for headphones, I want it to sound good everywhere.
Of course, a mix should sound good on all media, people listen everywhere on any device and the music has to sound good on all those devices, and that's part of the job. Glad to know my mix doesn't have this problem anyway
I've always hated room simulation plugins, to me it sounds like a bad room reverb with an EQ that sounds like speakers.
Haha, you just succintly summed up how those plugins sound indeed But - does the way they sound matter that much if they do help when mixing on headphones and they don't end up printed into the bounce anyway?
Haha, you just succintly summed up how those plugins sound indeed But - does the way they sound matter that much if they do help when mixing on headphones and they don't end up printed into the bounce anyway?
Oh yes, if it helps, you shouldn't be afraid to use it, it's still a tool like any other. For example, when I only had my S4X, I found that sometimes using the CLA room gave me a good indication of the sub level, so I used it a little, but I couldn't have used it on a whole mix. And I also tried it for adjusting the reverbs and I don't like it, I don't have the feeling of really hearing my reverb, but my reverb in a reverb
As for the idea of printing it, with Reaper (and this is the case with Cubase and Studio One too) we are lucky to have the "monitoring FX". I remember back in the day with Studio One when I was still using my monitors with Sonarworks and I almost always forgot to remove this plugin before the bounce lol... It was a bit annoying especially when you have hardware and you have to print in real time!
I use mid side eq based on can opener curve + custonm eq curve based on harman curve. it works wonders. in addition I use realphones.
Reading your comment made me curious about Harman curves, so I tried to educate myself by googling a bit and then tried matching my MDR-7506 phones to a few variations of the Harman curve using https://autoeq.app/ - and I'm quite impressed about the results I got listening to the reference snippets they have provided there! I let it fit to a parametric EQ with 1x low shelf + 4x peaking bands + 1x high shelf and set a few constraints on a few peaking bands manually in order to get the best match. Now I need to also educate myself on the crossfeed / Can-Opener technique. I'll definitely try this combo approach on my next mix once I figure out the crossfeed as well, so thanks for the tip!
I use mid side eq based on can opener curve + custonm eq curve based on harman curve. it works wonders. in addition I use realphones.
Reading your comment made me curious about Harman curves, so I tried to educate myself by googling a bit and then tried matching my MDR-7506 phones to a few variations of the Harman curve using https://autoeq.app/ - and I'm quite impressed about the results I got listening to the reference snippets they have provided there! I let it fit to a parametric EQ with 1x low shelf + 4x peaking bands + 1x high shelf and set a few constraints on a few peaking bands manually in order to get the best match. Now I need to also educate myself on the crossfeed / Can-Opener technique. I'll definitely try this combo approach on my next mix once I figure out the crossfeed as well, so thanks for the tip!
Hi Pentatonicdave, hi juhu,
your chat sounds interesting. Since I started this topic, I have to say something about it. That's why I listened to Pentatonicdave's mix again. I was a bit confused by the overall sound because it sounds quite balanced (the harman curve seems to work), but the relationship between the instruments seems very discordant to me. After reading your stereo trick again, I listened to everything in mono and lo and behold, it sounds much more coherent, only the pseudo-stereo instruments are now too quiet. Also, the bass and kick aren't really together, that seems to be due to your two channel bass processing with chorus and some masking in the low end, I'd watch out for that. Also, your processing emphasizes all the inappropriate bass fret noise. A strong steep-walled EQ cut at 2.5 kHz and a high-pass filter at approx. 25 Hz would help a lot, but an improvement at the starting point would certainly be more helpful. This is confirmed by my two pairs of speakers and my Audeze headphones, although I don't find the stereo effect in the headphones as inharmonious as on the speakers.
So much for the sound of your mix as it appears to me. Perhaps this will help in your discussion.
I use mid side eq based on can opener curve + custonm eq curve based on harman curve. it works wonders. in addition I use realphones.
Reading your comment made me curious about Harman curves, so I tried to educate myself by googling a bit and then tried matching my MDR-7506 phones to a few variations of the Harman curve using https://autoeq.app/ - and I'm quite impressed about the results I got listening to the reference snippets they have provided there! I let it fit to a parametric EQ with 1x low shelf + 4x peaking bands + 1x high shelf and set a few constraints on a few peaking bands manually in order to get the best match. Now I need to also educate myself on the crossfeed / Can-Opener technique. I'll definitely try this combo approach on my next mix once I figure out the crossfeed as well, so thanks for the tip!
So to complete my investigation regarding crossfeed, I've found this Youtube clip that explains what CanOpener is really doing behind the scenes and even shows a plot of the mid-side EQ curve involved: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktKD8SYGUiI&t=283s
Naturally, I then also replicated this CanOpener mid-side curve on top of the Harman-matching curve for my MDR-7506 (described in my previous post quoted above) and now mixes on phones (with matching curves enabled) do sound astonishingly close to how they sound on my HS80M's (with matching curves disabled)! I wasn't expecting to ever get this close tbh! Nice.
One additional note regarding the Harman compensation curve fitted using https://autoeq.app/ though: the Q-values provided by the curve fitter do not directly match to Logic's Channel EQ's understanding of Q-values (regardless the state of the Q-Couple toggle button) so I had to manually adjust the Q's in Logic visually to get the plotted curve as close as I could.
I use mid side eq based on can opener curve + custonm eq curve based on harman curve. it works wonders. in addition I use realphones.
Reading your comment made me curious about Harman curves, so I tried to educate myself by googling a bit and then tried matching my MDR-7506 phones to a few variations of the Harman curve using https://autoeq.app/ - and I'm quite impressed about the results I got listening to the reference snippets they have provided there! I let it fit to a parametric EQ with 1x low shelf + 4x peaking bands + 1x high shelf and set a few constraints on a few peaking bands manually in order to get the best match. Now I need to also educate myself on the crossfeed / Can-Opener technique. I'll definitely try this combo approach on my next mix once I figure out the crossfeed as well, so thanks for the tip!
Hi Pentatonicdave, hi juhu,
your chat sounds interesting. Since I started this topic, I have to say something about it. That's why I listened to Pentatonicdave's mix again. I was a bit confused by the overall sound because it sounds quite balanced (the harman curve seems to work), but the relationship between the instruments seems very discordant to me. After reading your stereo trick again, I listened to everything in mono and lo and behold, it sounds much more coherent, only the pseudo-stereo instruments are now too quiet. Also, the bass and kick aren't really together, that seems to be due to your two channel bass processing with chorus and some masking in the low end, I'd watch out for that. Also, your processing emphasizes all the inappropriate bass fret noise. A strong steep-walled EQ cut at 2.5 kHz and a high-pass filter at approx. 25 Hz would help a lot, but an improvement at the starting point would certainly be more helpful. This is confirmed by my two pairs of speakers and my Audeze headphones, although I don't find the stereo effect in the headphones as inharmonious as on the speakers.
So much for the sound of your mix as it appears to me. Perhaps this will help in your discussion.
Thanks for for the comment! I noticed the bass was to clicky but I decided to leave it like that. I will pay more attention to that in the future. The harman/midside eq method for monitoring is the best solution I found so far for mixing without any room simulations. its Especially helpfull for me to dial in the low end to sound balanced. Im still thinking the mid side method Im using is very good looks like my idea for chorus and stereo widening effects was not that good of idea - I knew that theese tools are tricky and to be used with caution yet I overdid it I think.
I use mid side eq based on can opener curve + custonm eq curve based on harman curve. it works wonders. in addition I use realphones.
Reading your comment made me curious about Harman curves, so I tried to educate myself by googling a bit and then tried matching my MDR-7506 phones to a few variations of the Harman curve using https://autoeq.app/ - and I'm quite impressed about the results I got listening to the reference snippets they have provided there! I let it fit to a parametric EQ with 1x low shelf + 4x peaking bands + 1x high shelf and set a few constraints on a few peaking bands manually in order to get the best match. Now I need to also educate myself on the crossfeed / Can-Opener technique. I'll definitely try this combo approach on my next mix once I figure out the crossfeed as well, so thanks for the tip!
So to complete my investigation regarding crossfeed, I've found this Youtube clip that explains what CanOpener is really doing behind the scenes and even shows a plot of the mid-side EQ curve involved: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktKD8SYGUiI&t=283s
Naturally, I then also replicated this CanOpener mid-side curve on top of the Harman-matching curve for my MDR-7506 (described in my previous post quoted above) and now mixes on phones (with matching curves enabled) do sound astonishingly close to how they sound on my HS80M's (with matching curves disabled)! I wasn't expecting to ever get this close tbh! Nice.
One additional note regarding the Harman compensation curve fitted using https://autoeq.app/ though: the Q-values provided by the curve fitter do not directly match to Logic's Channel EQ's understanding of Q-values (regardless the state of the Q-Couple toggle button) so I had to manually adjust the Q's in Logic visually to get the plotted curve as close as I could.
I'm glad you found it helpful, I hope it will make a difference. This is still thing that have to be used with caution and referenced agains other monitoring situations.
), the problems you are talking about can be solved with a crossfeed plugin. It's true that without this it's complicated to have a correct stereo image and it becomes complicated to place the elements in space. I've only been mixing with headphones for years and I don't feel like I'm making big mistakes on my instrument placements in space and when I check on the speakers or in the car, I don't have any surprises. But maybe I'm completely wrong and in this case I'll be happy to learn it to try to improve this point.
But - does the way they sound matter that much if they do help when mixing on headphones and they don't end up printed into the bounce anyway? 