Mix Challenge

Hello,
Thank you for your comments, just to explain my choices, I wanted to make a more Motown and more vintage sound, the low mids were not pushed but the curve at the high frequencies drops and is more vintage oriented (PS 42 modular Pulsar was put in vintage position on the mix bus), it's true that the lead has been reworked and has more chest, probably in the low mids... Because I noticed that in almost all the candidates (I respect their choices) only the part of the high frequencies stand out on the voices and it is not to my personal taste, assuming that during the mastering phase the high frequencies are very frequently increased, we then come back with aggressive voices . .. For me the comparison with the other candidates is not the only option to follow (except in terms of volume normalization) but rather comparing with a very good mix in the non-mastered style would be interesting...
Could I know the monitors you used for this comparison? For my part, it was mixed on Amphion ONE 15 in an optimized and flat environment.
Thank you for your time, it is greatly appreciated.
O’MIX

@O'MIX You nailed it, it's a taste thing and I think you made a good job!

I replicated the situation like I would listen back with a band to the mixes and the vintage style didn't fit so well here, but I love the explanation, thank you for taking the time.

I use Ollo Audio Headphones to check the Mixes for tonal balance, low end etc. and then again on Kali Audio IN8's just to check the overall vibe in a lively room, that's interesting that you mix with such amazing Speakers in such a flat room, so it was literally your choice for the spectral balance.

Good job!

@O'MIX I double-checked and the kick is just too aggressive in the higher register, it's overpowering Fionas voice!
Again, your dynamics are great! Just the final touches, Fionas voice is not so clear during the verse which is crucial in a pop mix, many instruments took over there - but as I mentioned, it's tricky once a a mix has been done and someone else with another pair of ears is giving feedback, by no means it means that you have a bad setup nor you are a bad mixing engineer - In round 2 I simply have to compare all mixes and decide - it's not easy, so details make the difference, thank you for understanding!

Los_ady wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:54 CEST

@O'MIX I double-checked and the kick is just too aggressive in the higher register, it's overpowering Fionas voice!
Again, your dynamics are great! Just the final touches, Fionas voice is not so clear during the verse which is crucial in a pop mix, many instruments took over there - but as I mentioned, it's tricky once a a mix has been done and someone else with another pair of ears is giving feedback, by no means it means that you have a bad setup nor you are a bad mixing engineer - In round 2 I simply have to compare all mixes and decide - it's not easy, so details make the difference, thank you for understanding!

There is no discomfort don't worry, I understand your point of view, I could however suggest you to test the headphone correction plugin and the studio environment "Acustica Sienna" it could be of a great help for your headphone checks because some reported problems are much less obvious on my Audeze LC2 Classic + Sienna headphone monitoring system, one last feedback on your project, it would have been better to have the Beat unmixed to work better on the groove, the vocal lead is also veiled (other contestants have noticed this too) Thanks again for your time and other great projects
O’MIX

Thanks @O'MIX, please read the description: These are the files that I received, not produced, so we all (me included) have exactly the same starting point from what the band provided - it would be optimal if the vocals would have been recorded with a U87 and it would be awesome to have the separate beat files - but we don't - so we have to find a workaround. It's a demo recording that I mixed and the band liked it so much that they released it as a single.

It's a lesson: be the engineer who makes it work not the one who complains that it's not "perfect" - the truth is, in most productions in real life, we won't get perfect files - we work with creatives, they are all over the place, they record crazy demos that have to make it on the record somehow.

I can recommend you the book "Behind the glass part 1 & 2" many stories with workarounds there from THE best

Example:
For Fiona's voice, I used cleanup tools and vocal riding, and believe me: A click, a distortion part here or there, no worries - You can hear these same things on Doja Cat's #1 records and many ... many .. many others

Of course: If you can avoid it, record as clean as possible - if you can't avoid it, work with it, be the guy that people want to call again because you make things work - that's how we get clients, that's how we can make a living with it.

And here important message, for EVERYONE:

This is no final statement that I'm giving here, it doesn't mean your songs are good or bad mixed (especially for the ones who made it to Round 2 which is A W E S O M E)

I'm aware that we have Engineers here who are pure creative focused, pure technical focused, and a mix of both so we won't make everyone happy, and that's also not my point - trying to make everyone happy is the first step to personal unhappiness

In this mixing scenario, which is really not normal in real productions, we had to compare between 70 and then 15 mixes which ones stuck out and fit the best cooompared to eeeach ooother

We all have - even with the same equipment - different ears, different tastes from the way we grew up, different ideas, and different environments.

So there is no possibility to say that a mix is "right" or "wrong" - I'm aware, that YouTubers are really pushing in their videos to say: "This is the right amount of compression" - "This is the only Mixing Template you need" but it has a reason: So that you follow and subscribe - the more drama the better.

This is not my mindset (neither Warren's or from Produce Like A Pro Academy members) therefore my appeal:

See this "Contest" a bit more open-minded and don't take it too personally because the world of audio is endless and beautiful and there is no right or wrong - there are guidelines, there is endless progress and there is endless creativity - it's not that easy as "That's Good - That's not Good" this view is actually BS

The one's who broke the rules and walk their way, make it.

Thank you for the recommendation for Headphone correction software - my honest opinion - whats the goal and whats the goal? A better balance? What is the right balance? Who defines the right balance? Why should I buy now other software that sits on my hard drive? These are the questions I ask myself before buying stuff and I can't find a logical answer atm

There are engineers like Cameron Webb or Jordan Valeriote (and 100's others) who mix significant important records on NS10 - do they need another plugin that measures their room?

My honest opinion: I prefer to work closer with the artist and ask them for their opinion (Does that sound the way you like it? What are your reference tracks?) instead of buying new software - But that's my creative side, you are more technical - both are valid

Have a great start to the week

@Los_ady

The fact that people made great mixes on NS10s doesn't make them great monitors. And it definitely doesn't mean that you need NS10 to make a great mix, or that acoustic treatment is not important.
They were using it 40 years ago because there was nothing better and today's production and sound, especially low end is completely different. Good luck in mixing 40 Hz on NS10.

In my case my mix in round 1 was "TOP"
On next round my tonal balance is all over the place and mix is too compressed.
But I did not touch any of these aspects in my revision.

This change of mind is not about different ears, different tastes, different ideas, and different environments anymore.

You are 100% correct about the stuff which is purely subjective.
I can't argue about the tonal balance for example, you can like something, others/you will not.

But this is a COMPETITION.
You need some technical stuff to make it objective.
If there's nothing objective here, this competition doesn't make sense as the winners can be always friends of friends or "nice guys".

Some of us are calling ourselves "engineers".
So, it is not all some voodoo and magic, some stuff is also numbers.

And for example, compression is something you can measure.

Your feedback to me is that my sound is too compressed,
but the truth is that almost all of the tracks in round 3 are more compressed than mine, and you can measure it.



About the things with YouTube channels, and drama, you are 100% right. We are sometimes living in a bubble. Your statement that Warren said/think something it must be true, is just one example of such a thinking. So be careful, as you might live in another - less technical bubble without even realizing it. What makes one better from another?

And remember that some of us are not kids anymore.
Some of us have years of experience in audio world.
Suggesting that we are watching "these" YouTube channels is not appropriate.

And all this is just a discussion. Not complaining. I guess that is the reason for this community, isn't it?
Peace, hugs and love.

@Mac So Thx for your message, today I checked all mixes again after our chat yesterday and I might wrote the wrong feedback in the wrong column Your mix sounds fine and could have even some more compression, so apologies for that.

But anyway, I never said that what Warren said must be true, that's your interpretation and I had long conversations with him about things that I don't agree with as well and we came still to the point that this is the beauty in mixing and production - that we don't agree and try other things. I mentioned this academy because we are there for 3 years every year in a meeting, reviewing 10 mixes every Friday.

Compression on the Mix Bus, yes, you can measure in numbers but it's still in relation to your mix, no?

What's triggering the compression? Is it the kick? The Vocals? The Guitars? Or is your mix so even that everything hits it smooth?

And then: How compressed are the individual elements? How do you measure that? It's again, perceived, in the individual way we perceive music, and if your mix didn't make the cut because my ears didn't like it, it doesn't mean it's bad ^^

Individual instrumentation processing and dynamic decisions in the arrangement can change a lot

I suggest to everyone who participated to run the next mix challenge in the way you think it should be, Mr Fox is always desperately looking for new song providers <3

And then, I can learn from you - That's the power of community, that's what I'm here for and spend many hours of my life listening and giving feedback for.

Hi Ady,

I see that your choices for the second and third rounds as well as your ideas are causing a lot of ink to flow.

First of all know that I appreciate above all your open-mindedness. Not so common in the musical world. In your #145
you do a very good tour on the vision that we can have today in the field of musical production.
You confirm it yourself, a mix is ​​not necessarily either good or bad. If I add that the tastes and colors are not discussed,
we could close the chapter.

However, I come back to the title "Power is out". The recording and mixing conditions seem quite "adventurous" to me,
as is your professional life, always on the road, in distant countries and very different cultures. This is where I would like
to express an artistic opinion.
I know Morocco well (a former French colony) and I worked there in early 2000 with the Moroccan Radio Television orchestra
(symphony orchestra format). I met sound engineers from the country there. I admit I was completely lost in their musical
productions. This musical style and the Arabic language somehow escaped me. Impossible for me (by game) to mix anything.
I was completely off topic for these people.

I finally come to the subject: how can one mix two such different musical cultures that have no common root ?
"Power is out" is no exception to the rule: a title based on pop-rock instruments (excluding drums) mixed with Maghrebian
percussion instruments.To this is added female melodies in chords not really compatible with "standard" chords that we know
(those played by the brass) and which give an absolutely unconvincing result.
African rhythm instruments will never replace pop-rock dums.
So, all of a sudden, my God, why this rather undrinkable mixture moreover! The absolutely positive point is to have tried.
Personally absolutely not convinced. The reality is that we find ourselves in situations so different from each other that
I wonder if a consensus is possible: first of all people's ears, their musical culture, the audio equipment used (specifically
monitors and headphones) etc, etc....
In addition, you have to satisfy the group that you record and mix and the icing on the cake, a course in Mix-Challenge. LOL!!

Isn't life beautiful ?

Mixing can be hard and frustrating

I am not a pro, but I consider myself an advanced hobbyist
I would say mixing is 70% art and feeling, and 30% numbers in my humble opinion
At the end of the day, it is about how a mix makes the listener feel

I am part of a mixing community called Tourna-Mix
Each month, we have two songs to mix. The tracks are professionally recorded. About 100 mixers submit their mixes. Some of those mixers are pro. The top 3 win some prices
But here is the fun part: The winners are selected by the mixers themselves. I will spare you how the voting works. Check it out if you are curious

By tomorrow, I have to pick my top three mixes from a pool of 20 mixes. It is easy to discard the bottom 15 just by the way the mixes make me feel
Then it gets harder to select the top 3 from the remaining 5. Only then the little technical details count.
All the submitted mixes are anonymous

After a year in participating in those tournaments, here are some conclusions:

- It is a humbling experience
- Feeling first, numbers after...the objective numbers are at the service of the subjective final feel, not the other way around, if that makes sense
- Even though the competition is anonymous and the mixers are the judges, the top 5 are mostly the same mixers over and over again. They are
OBJECTIVELY the best mixers of the community...based on a SUBJECTIVE art form..."Isn't that ironic, don't you think?"

When you get to be the judge and pick the winner from a mix pool, it makes you understand some realities

I suspect it was the same for @Los_ady
Picking the top 15 was easy....also quite easy picking the top 5...It will be harder to choose the winner

Do yourselves a favour: Put yourselves in a position where you have to be the judge for a contest..you realize some hard realities

I am stepping in, before this goes any further out of hand.


Yes, the Mix(ing) Challenge is technically a competition, but also a learning tool. I could tell you if "real world" stories where my initial mix was amazing and the client pleased with the initial results. But then after I was asked to revise thing ABC and the client listened again, I sometimes suddenly had to roll things back and/or re-adjust. Although in my case, that was mostly a back and forth 2-3 times, or with the client right beside me (so the "change of mind" happened within minutes even).


This is where one important thing comes into place: the client has the final word.
You can bring up your points, sure. In cases, the client might even agree with you and you can find a compromise (not always the case -- depends on the client). But blaming it on equipment and/or "there needs to be technical objectivity", this just doesn't work in this matter.

That is a different rule-set - from which I (as host and "keeper of the code") have the final word on.
As in - did you submit in the correct sampling rate and bitrate, does your mix not exceed a certain signal strength, is it suitably long so that a possible follow-up engineer can do proper fades for a release. did you use the right filename so that your mix can be easily found and identified, did you document your edits (not only for "total recall" purposes, but also for the learning aspect of the game), etc.


Trying to put the blame on "faulty" or "inferior" listening environments does not get us anywhere. The end-product is important, no matter what equipment you mixed on. If you managed to mix on noisy 4" 30W speakers with a consumer amplifier (maybe even the "Loudness Mode" EQ curve enabled), while somebody else mixed on 20000 EUR expensive studio monitors and room-in-room setup. However your "inferior tech" mix not only translates better to all types of playback mediums than the other "high tier equipment one", but also pleases the client more... Then that is just how it is.

It is also a "daily moment" thing, listening to 50+ mixes, ear fatigue, tonal balance shift because you changed something else. Suddenly the thing that you did not touch, is now sticking out like a sore thumb. You didn't do bad. I mean... you've made it to Round 2 from xyz entries. You can be proud of your accomplishments, and you got feedback on top of that. Something you might not get at any other "competition" place.

In this case, the client chose the mix that "worked better" for him/her, and "Mix Round 3" is just the final icing on the cake to further refine things, or to figure out a personal tie that can't be broken.



The task is still:
Mix in such a way, that it sounds great on all possible playback mediums, and that barely any additional after-touches are necessary with a follow-up mastering process.

Which in reality, is really just final signal limiting and maybe even loudness adjustments, maybe a broad EQ to fix one annoying frequency, and and stereo correction tools before either encoding for MP3/AAC and/or "cutting to vinyl". Yes, it really is that simple! Mastering is not just some "holy grail" voodoo type of deal that suddenly creates the "uber-amazing sound" that you then hear on the radio. It can be, with the trade-off of having to use more tools to "fix a stereo mix". But to 97%, it's the main mix that you have created.

This is what the Mix(ing) Challenges are trying to teach. On top of "handling clients". This is a training exercise first and foremost. Without the fear of risking a loss of possible income from suddenly being ghosted, and/or taking a hit to your reputation. Something that no audio school will teach you. You win by learning from the experience. The licenses are a bonus incentive.




Now that we have this out of the way:

If I have to one more time read things along the lines of "the files have been borderline unusable" and/or "in the real world, something like this doesn't happen" (as in: genre mismatch, non-perfect files being delivered, etc), then I have to unfortunately wake you from your slumber. This is what is happening on a daily basis to some of us techs. You do not know how many hours have been invested behind the scenes for certain Mix(ing) Challenges throughout recent years, that ultimately resulted in the files at the quality that was provided to you.

@Los_ady said it best... if you want a different outcome for a future Mix(ing) Challenge, then please do get in touch. Do invest the time as well, provide me with a demo mix and multi-tracks. Help keep the community alive, add to the learning experience. Maybe then we can get back on track with one mix per month between February and December. Everything else is just "talk".




With that said...

I ask everyone to please take a step back, and focus on the task at hand. Which is still "Mix Round 3" that will end about 30 hours (or 1 day, 6 hrs). Every participant has been pinged and sent a reminder email. And so far, we have no entries.

Any further commentary on this will either be moved to General Gossip (if it is general questions that haven't been answered in the Rule Books or FAQ already), or just straight up deleted without any further commentary. If you keep on pressuring, I will be issuing temporal suspensions (only once!). Don't agree with the concept / outcome of the game -- please don't hesitate to send me a PM or reach out via mail to request an account deletion and I'll get to that within 24 hours.




See you after the "Mix Round 3" entries.