Mix Challenge

Thanks @Mister Fox and @JeroenZuiderwijk for giving your time and song to this community: it is amazing seeing the passion which glue all the participants.

I just realized I’ve been “tagged disqualified” for breaking the rules: it is correct and I accept it. I just want to say that I did not ignore the rule, I simply read it the other way around while running through them. infact I did not try to cheat since I clearly stated it in my mix description quoted below.

lupobuonino wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 21, 2023 18:21 CEST

DRUMS:
I decided to use a drum replacer for Kick and Snare, maintaining also the original tracks, for giving more punch to the overall drums.

good luck and happy mixing to All!

Paolo.

Hi there, since I'm already disqualified because of loudness specs, I would like to ask a question. :-)

After Mixing my Mix was at approx -12dB LUFS, without any processing on the Master Bus. Stupid me uploaded that version, since I also have a version where I turned the volume down a bit... well, too late now.

I do understand the guidelines for the sake of having some rules that apply to everyone. But I don't really understand the idea of Mixing more quiet than necessary, since after Mastering the noice floor will get louder? How did you guys do it, or am I confused here?

With other genres -16 is definitely good to aim at, but with this music I found it actually hard to stay that quiet.

Cheers,
Maik

Maik_punchline wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 26, 2023 13:48 CEST

But I don't really understand the idea of Mixing more quiet than necessary, since after Mastering the noise floor will get louder?

I believe the idea is to retain some dynamic range, even if it's just mostly microdynamics in some genres. Loudness is relative, therefore moderate attenuation in the digital domain at 24-bit resolution right before your LUFS meter will not affect the signal-to-noise ratio in any way, not even in the mastered outcome, because your noise floor will get attenuated along with your signal by the same amount. Also, loudness standardization makes it more convenient to listen to and compare mixes without having to reach for the volume knob as much, and without risking blowing up your speakers or damaging your hearing when you hit play on a "louder" mix after having just listened to a "quieter" one.

Maik_punchline wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 26, 2023 13:48 CEST

With other genres -16 is definitely good to aim at, but with this music I found it actually hard to stay that quiet.

Again, loudness is relative, it's easy to apply the exact amount of attenuation right before your LUFS meter without max peak dropping below -6 dBFS unless your dynamic range was too squashed to begin with.

Maik_punchline wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 26, 2023 13:48 CEST

With other genres -16 is definitely good to aim at, but with this music I found it actually hard to stay that quiet.

Cheers,
Maik

I found the same, like yourself I came naturally to -12 with no mix bus processing - it's the wall of guitars! ...but after mixing it more dynamically it did sound better turned up loud.

juhu wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 26, 2023 15:09 CEST

Again, loudness is relative, it's easy to apply the exact amount of attenuation right before your LUFS meter without max peak dropping below -6 dBFS unless your dynamic range was too squashed to begin with.

But then it sounds quiet and you realise you could have used that headroom by making a more dynamic mix and it would then actually have power, not just sound like it did.

As far as I know it's usual to send the mix with a good amount of headroom to the mastering studio. And, of course, without limiting and too much processing on the mixbus. The mastering sounds better with preserved peaks on the mixbus.

With 24 bit respectively 144 dB signal-to-noise ratio even 10 or 20 dB headroom is ok. The noise floor of analogue equipment, AD/DA converters etc. is often higher, comparable to 16 bits (96 dB SNR).

And what is so difficult about checking the integrated loudness (and possibly turn the level down) before rendering?

By now I participated on a few mix challenges here and my submissions were always within the given parameters. For me it's totally not understandable what's so difficult about this.

JeroenZuiderwijk wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 23, 2023 14:10 CEST

Hi Wohooo3000 (nice name ;-) )

The bass sound comes from an effect that is part of the Boss BR80. In a mix it can be convincing enough.

Thank you for participating! I'm working on my comments and will post them as soon as possible.

Jeroen

Hey Jeroen!
Thanks for your reply - I didn't know that something like this exists

sirmonkey wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 23, 2023 05:25 CEST

I liked this mix. I was thinking "Dang, I should have made my mix sound more like this..."
I stuck pretty close to the original tones of the guitars, but now I wish I didn't. Anyway, you added
just enough energy and power, without getting that fizzy sound that can happen with amp sims.
Vocals sat just right. All seemed balanced to me. I'm betting you'll be in round 2.

Hi sirmonkey!
Thanks for your kind words! Good luck!

It seems many people have the LUFS problem. I also had this same problem in my firsts mixes in this competition.

I strongly recommend using an audio editor after printing the track, so you can normalize the volume at -16 lufs, I use RX7 that have a specific module to achieve this. But I am sure there are many others.

Cheers!

m_tree wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 26, 2023 16:11 CEST

As far as I know it's usual to send the mix with a good amount of headroom to the mastering studio. And, of course, without limiting and too much processing on the mixbus. The mastering sounds better with preserved peaks on the mixbus.

This used to be mostly the case. However these days anything goes. The specs are made by the client. A very large number of major ladel and pop mixes involve mixing/mastering at the same time. Some of these mixes go to -8lufs and even -6lufs. It doesn't mean it is right or wrong. Whatever works in each case. I think we have to be able to adapt and adhere to the requirements of each project.
However I do believe that when doing a mix it is important to know if it will be mastered extra loud in order to take that into account while mixing.

PauPeu wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 27, 2023 11:28 CEST

It seems many people have the LUFS problem. I also had this same problem in my firsts mixes in this competition.

I strongly recommend using an audio editor after printing the track, so you can normalize the volume at -16 lufs, I use RX7 that have a specific module to achieve this. But I am sure there are many others.

You can use the free https://www.meldaproduction.com/MLoudnessAnalyzer as a VST to check the LUFS values online.
In REAPER (which I use) you can add the SWS extension which includes offline loudness analysis. Further, since one year or so, REAPER displays the LUFS values while rendering.

It really can be that simple.

Michael_K wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 27, 2023 12:01 CEST

m_tree wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 26, 2023 16:11 CEST

As far as I know it's usual to send the mix with a good amount of headroom to the mastering studio. And, of course, without limiting and too much processing on the mixbus. The mastering sounds better with preserved peaks on the mixbus.

This used to be mostly the case. However these days anything goes. The specs are made by the client. A very large number of major ladel and pop mixes involve mixing/mastering at the same time. Some of these mixes go to -8lufs and even -6lufs. It doesn't mean it is right or wrong. Whatever works in each case. I think we have to be able to adapt and adhere to the requirements of each project.
However I do believe that when doing a mix it is important to know if it will be mastered extra loud in order to take that into account while mixing.

Of course, it's indivudally. I already sent mixes to mastering studios. Even when I mastered my self I often did this in a second step / project.

I think it's also important to know for which platform or medium the production is mastered. For example - when I master for Youtube I always will go somehwere between -13.5 and -14 LUFS integrated, because Youtube always normalizes on -14. Most of the streaming platforms normalizes on such moderate levels. Spotify on -14, too.
Even for CD ... the loudness war is over.

In normal cases there's one mix which is mastered in different ways for different mediums. For example CD and vinyl. And for the vinyl you can't go on such hot levels as in digital.