Mix Challenge

Olli H wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 25, 2019 20:45 CET

1:30 Weird curling bass sound, or is it guitar?

It's a VST bass run through a distorted bass preset setting in NI Guitar Rig.

Olli H wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 25, 2019 20:45 CET

2.06 You should consider a new drummer, it’s the weakest link in your band

Ha! Yeah, but he's been with me literally forever :-) Seriously, though, I have started watching YouTube videos on how to be a better (fake) drummer and am taking Mike Verta's percussion class to try and get better. If you have any suggestions on how to improve, I'd love to hear them. I have no clue with drums.

Olli H wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 25, 2019 20:45 CET

2:27 Song disappers to some sort of uncertainty
Song starts nicely, but ending is a bit vague.

That was sort of the idea - I combined the A and B sections to represent how all the crap I went through is now integrated into my personality, but then went off a bit at the end to portray an uncertain future. I think this was the first song I've written that doesn't end on the tonic, for this reason.

Olli H wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 25, 2019 20:45 CET

Nice guitar playing, I think I can hear the effect of human hand touching fretboard skillfully.

Thanks! The MIDI pickup isn't perfect (I have to manually adjust a good amount of notes), but it sure beats trying to play a convincing lead line on a keyboard. I don't have a pre-amp or DI box, so this is how I record my guitar for now. And the tone of the OTS VST guitars are incredible (way better than I can do on my own).

Thanks for the detailed feedback. It was insightful and helpful.

Dave

Hi,
First of all I am very happy to have found the site. As these songs prove that here are extremely talented people. Sorry for my bad english, i have asked google translate for help in many places , if something is not clear, please forgive me :-)

Voting was a very big dilemma for me because there are some great songs that I think are a little out of the genre, and there are less structured or arranged songs that, in turn, get closer to the theme.
I think I'm just right when I consider also the genre, not just the brilliant melody, flawless structure or perfect instrumentation.

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TrojakEW: Become a Champion

Nice intro (a bit long), good chorus and very good riser at the end and good change in the mood at 0:47.
Around 1:00 there is nice guitar solo. (Only deeper guttural death metal voice elements are missing
Until 1:30 it is perfect, and then the dynamism stops.
The drums are interesting, but then only guitar solos, without real cohesion.

On the other hand, I like the arrangement very much.
All in all a good metallic rhythm and sound, which later on will sit down a bit. But it's the most metallic (and symphonic) of the songs. I think this song is closest to the subject.
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SimaGT: Gates

It starts well, promising drums, strings, chorus, good shifting and rhythm at the beginning, real metallic sound. After the first part, I think the "eastern esoteric" percussion is long. The middle solo (guitar) sounds fine between 1:46 and 2:34, but it is a bit boring on its own. The ending from 3:06 is getting better and the end sounds like a brilliant symphonic metal song. (good rhythm, orchestration, not too loud chorus, pretty good).
The middle of the song wasn't worked out well, but in general is a good song in the genre.
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Gruskada: Transclusion

I liked the intro, good solo guitar.
It's a bit more emotional, slower than the other songs, but it sounds really good.
1:07: very good guitar part, good shift, melody. Best ~25 seconds of the competition. So far, it would be really good movie score for some movie (for example under a scene at night, with dark mood in the style of the 80's) .
So far perfect song, then ... something goes wrong... and after 2:30 the melody picks up the abandoned song, but it's not so dynamic and loses a bit of the mood.
There's a lot of work in it, one of the strongest song (but I think it's not fit in the genre completely). As a movie score, I'd buy it right away
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Olli H: Uninvited Guest

At the beginning I liked the gong (or similar percussion) and there is a good female narrator voice. It's like some video game intro.
The strings are starting well, It's interesting and promising.
0:48 I like the change of the rhythm and the nice, fast melody.

I think the guitar is a bit thin for the style (some deep metallic rhythm or voice is missing).
The parody is great, but it could have been a bit more metallic.

1:17 Good tempo change
1:39 The fast parts are very good.

When I look at the structure and the nature of the song, it's absolutely the best song, great ideas, nice melody. There was a smile on my face when I listened.
But unfortunately this is not a symphonic metal song I think. But maybe I am wrong.
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Mellow Browne: All White Keys

Nice guitar intro, good drum start, promising start, waiting for the melody but not really wanting to come.
The piano is interesting, adds to the overall effect, but it can't forget the feeling of 'something missing'.
At least in terms of symphonic metal.
But In fact:
The song has a very good relaxed atmosphere. It can be the perfect choice for videos as background music.
There is no great melodic lines, but it serves as a pleasant background.
Perfect composition for stock libraries. I loved. I like this kind of music but it's defenitely out of the genre.
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gruskada wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 26, 2019 15:49 CET

Ha! Yeah, but he's been with me literally forever :-) Seriously, though, I have started watching YouTube videos on how to be a better (fake) drummer and am taking Mike Verta's percussion class to try and get better. If you have any suggestions on how to improve, I'd love to hear them. I have no clue with drums.

Not many tips for i’m not a drummer (although we do have drums in our house). I suggest testing many well done midi files for your own music and see what happens. And if you find something workable, remember to edit it for your needs. That’s when learning begins. Doing changes and listening the effect. And you should test midi-grooves with your own music, for then you listen more critically the effect of drums. (Download the free SSD5, it has some well done midi grooves to begin with.)
And listen Ringo Starr. His drums always support the song. Sometimes extremely simple, sometimes more complicated, but always what the song needs. He also had a skill not to play anything if the song didn’t need drums.

becsei_gyorgy wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 26, 2019 22:30 CET

But unfortunately this is not a symphonic metal song I think. But maybe I am wrong.

I quess you’re just right.
- I really tried to make metallic guitar sound, but my playing skills and signal chain just didn’t find the right combination. That's an area I'm willing to learn more.
- And I couldn’t afford symphonic orchestra, so I had to use string quartet.
But hey, maybe I made a "poor man's symphonic metal song". Or maybe it should be called just "ensemble rock song". (And I have to admit, I used also Apocalyptica as my reference, a Finnish band that started with playing Metallica with cellos)

Thanks for the comments!

Fall of Themyscira - becsei_gyorgy

Very Symphonic Metal name. I like it. Nice Piano intro. Bass sound is a bit funky, and seems out of place.

0:19 - this would have sounded better not hitting the tonic note here with the bass - would have been really cool if it just hung unresolved for a few seconds, then the guitars. Guitars at 0:22 are brutal in a good way. These sound so good! Drums sound awesome, too. Really nice foundation.

Not a fan of the operatic vocals, but that's a big part of the genre - can't fault you for it. But it's cool that the singer holds the top note, instead of following the rest of the music.

I like how the guitars and violins (or violas?) trade riffs for a a bit. Nice touch. The melody is a bit too simplistic, though. Maybe you are outlining chords too closely. Glaring example - guitars at 0:36. Be more bold - it's ok to have passing tones that aren't in the key/mode. Maybe more contrary motion as well (some tones moving up while others are moving down) - you do this a bit, though.

Nice break to the guitar solo at 1:10, but the guitar solo could use some work. Again, you're playing it too safe. It also sounds fake - I know it actually is, and Shreddage can be tough for lead lines, but guitarists use bends and vibrato a lot. The last note of the solo, where you do use a bend, makes all the difference. A nice delay here might just make this part more interesting, though.

The cello sounds great, though some of the articulations sound a bit off - esp. the quick note at ~1:55. Using legato here (if your library has it) would probably fix it. Choirs sound amazing. Nice job. I like how the drums change at 2:48 - it adds some nice energy.

Overall, the descending chord progression gets a bit tiring after a while. I'd either change it up a bit, or modulate to a different key at least.

A number of the songs in the competition (mine included) seem to not quite be in the genre. I think you hit the nail on the head - it's definitely symphonic metal. Solid stuff overall, and welcome to the forum.

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Become a Champion - TrojakEW

Great intro. I like how the female vocal rises out of the choir at 0:17. Sounds heavenly for a bit - it's quite awesome. I see you used the Penderecki effect too at ~0:45 :-) Hey, it works...

Nice transition into the heavy part, too. Something's up with the guitars at 1:00, though. It sounds like you've got round robin, so that's not it. Doesn't sound natural, though. Maybe because there would be more picking noises if you were really playing that fast? Not sure. Also, maybe playing a few different notes at the end of each run might make it sound more realistic. I do like the harmonics at ~1:14, though. The part starting at 1:16 is pretty well-done. I'd maybe add a little bit more vibrato at the end of each sustained note, though. Adding a 5th or full power chord here and there really helps sell it as well. Nice glissando at 1:30, followed by a very cool flanged/phased part, and even cooler percussion part!

The solo at 2:08 doesn't really sound like something a guitarist would play. Legato between the two notes might help. If I were playing it, I'd probably add a trill at the end of each sustained note as well, and maybe play around with octave jumping or doubling as well. Now we're talking at 2:32 with more authentic phrasing, but this would sound awesome sped up, maybe even to double speed.

I really like the end, with the interplay between the choirs and orchestra. Solid ending note as well.

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Uninvited Guest - Olli H

What an odd song. I love it. But, quite outside the genre. Crazy, since I think you really nailed the essence of the genre in your feedback post. Still, you've got some great dry sounding cellos(?) at 0:15, and some nice-sounding guitar tones and production, esp. at 1:18. Guitars sound really fake before that, but it works well with the song anyway. It's a shame because you have some good lines that could sound really good on a better VST. I don't think you programmed anything badly - they are just not great source sounds. But, like I said, it still works as is. The dry choirs work well here, too.

I like how the song slowly builds in energy, until the haunting ending.

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All White Keys- Mellow Browne

Seems not very much like symphonic metal to me. Still an interesting song, though. I like the main idea, and how you build on it. The guitars are well done, and relaxing. Rhythm guitar tone is killer. The fades seem a bit abrupt, though (example at 0:43). Drums with the muted guitars almost make it sound like it's one instrument - an odd-sounding drum. I hear some symphonic elements, but they act more as a background. That, combined with the guitar not being too heavy I think really makes this sound out of the genre.

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Gates - SimaGT

You nailed the genre. This song is great - I love the driving and exotic feel. Ra has some great stuff, and you've used it well to build some nice tension. Really nice job maintaining interest throughout. I love the key change at 1:46. Good choice using a keyboard for the killer solo as well. Choirs could maybe use a little more reverb, though. It's really my only fault with the song. They sound a bit out of place. Guitars sound really cool - I've got to try out that library.

gruskada wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 27, 2019 04:44 CET

Uninvited Guest - Olli H

What an odd song. I love it. But, quite outside the genre. Crazy, since I think you really nailed the essence of the genre in your feedback post. Still, you've got some great dry sounding cellos(?) at 0:15, and some nice-sounding guitar tones and production, esp. at 1:18. Guitars sound really fake before that, but it works well with the song anyway. It's a shame because you have some good lines that could sound really good on a better VST. I don't think you programmed anything badly - they are just not great source sounds. But, like I said, it still works as is. The dry choirs work well here, too.

I agree that I wasn’t so succesful with sounds.

The first speedsolo was not meant to be guitar but it was Vivaldi inspired violin part going through distorted guitar amp, ie. classical violinist stepping into metal world. Maybe I was too experimental. (Or too inspired by Apocalyptica.) Bad mistake, especially now that I read again Mister Fox opening statement: ”What I do not want to see here, is going experimental.”

Second speedsolo was real solid body guitar where I played about the same solo that I programmed for the violin. It was meant to be guitarist’s answer to classical violinist, ie metal guitarist stepping into classical world. So it was band members' hidden conversation on the stage. But as I’ve played almost all my life only hollow body gibson, I do have big troubles of getting the right sounds out of my solid body electric guitar. (I got that solid body guitar by accident, as one of my clients didn’t have money to pay for the code that he needed.)

Thanks for the comments!

Just some quick feedback from my side - I might (emphasis: might! always a lot to do towards the end of the month) join in and give more thoughts on the submitted productions. However this is exactly what I wanted to see: interaction and encouragement how to improve.


Regarding the question of drums, especially if you're not skilled programming them:

I can recommend checking out tools like Toontrack EZDrummer (which comes with a lot of MIDI loops), then Steven Slate Drums 5 (SSD5) does come with a couple of MIDI files. But if you want to program basic drum patters, and then spice it up with the AI that determines if a real drummer could play it or not, there is really nothing on the lines of Rayzoon Jamstix (a free version is also available).


The same goes for guitars by the way.

I didn't mention Musiclab out of nowhere. The VSTi offer 30 day non-restricted demos, have an outstanding "brain" to boot and are low profile in both RAM and CPU. This engine might not come with as many MIDI files/easy patters like AmpleSound, but if you need a virtual guitar, it's definitely among the best ones out there. Sadly people shrug those guitars off way too quick and "being too fake and too harsh sounding", because nobody ever thinks of using an LPF (recommended: 18dB/Oct, starting at 10kHz) before hitting an amp (especially important for Engine 4, all Engine 5 guitars don't suffer from that as much anymore).


Just some starting points... for the future.

Thanks - appreciate all the feedback about drums.

The Jamstix stuff sounds interesting - I just downloaded the free version and will try it out soon. I hate the idea of using loops, but am ok with some AI help , so this seems perfect.

I do like the idea of learning from MIDI files, though. I will definitely try that out.

Awesome suggestions.

Thanks again,
Dave

First of all, thanks for your feedback, you all made amazing work. I know I have to try harder and you guys have taught me a lot of things and your words are much appreciated.

After many listening sessions ( I think you all mastered the symphonic part ) I decided to go this way:


1. Musicality/diversity
2. Sound choice/realism
3. Mix balance
4. Personal taste

So, here we go:

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becsei gyorgy: Fall of Themyscira

-nice intro til 0:27
-your main theme is very catchy, and I like that little transition part @ 00:46,
-good musicality/diversity

BUT

-main theme too repetitive (someone was talking about my song being too loop-based and too static)
-lead guitar sounds a bit cheap
-mix a bit too busy
-the end is very cloudy with the background choirs

still nice work

I'm sure you can do better arrangements. Keep on practicing (just like me )
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Olli H: Uninvited Guest

-very interesting, good musicality/diversity
-sound choice is good
-very catchy

BUT

-don’t like the voice samples
-as mentioned, sound choice is not bad, but it doesn’t feel so realistic to me
-end is too abrupt
-overall mix balance is not bad, it has a certain energy to it, but I think you should do another revision. Sometimes I can’t really hear the vocal samples and everything seems a bit too cloudy (strings/guitars).

still good work

I think you are very close to a very good overall sound. Keep on practicing your arrangement skills (like me )
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SimaGT: Gates

-great musical idea
-very good musicality/diversity
-has a nice „bad ass arabic“ touch to it
-overall very good sound choice
-nice arrangement

BUT

-mix is not so well balanced (check gain staging again) or automation? @ 01:13, personally I feel a big drop between the transition part here (even though the overall energy is just right). And I don’t like the kick drum, it sounds plastic. Maybe you mixed on headphones.

great work

You are very good in what you are doing, but I know you can do better mixes
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TrojakEW: Become A Champion

-wow, great intro, I feel your work.
-your main theme is very bad ass and it „feels“ like a pro wrestler entrance music to me, fits perfect to the title. It has a nice energy.
-nice realistic overall sound
-nice mix balance

BUT

-could be a bit more symphonic

excellent work

Personally, I like yours the most .
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gruskada: Transclusion

-wow, beautiful intro
-very nice and powerful build up part
-very good musicality/diversity
-sounds very realistic
-excellent arrangement
-nice finish
-overall sound/mix balance is really good

BUT

-drums are way too quiet to my taste, could be louder and stronger in the mix

awesome work

I think this one is the best example for this genre

For all:
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I have really really hard time decide the first three positions. At the end I choose position based how much close it is to chosen genre (Symphonic Metal), but I have also in mind theme that was Symphony of Guitars. Because of theme I was awaiting track where guitars are dominant instruments with some additional symphonic instruments to accompany them. Because genre is Metal I was awaiting more dirty, distorted guitars where some tracks feels more like rock and not metal tracks. Very important is overall feel/mood of track, composition followed by mix & master. Since I'm not a musician I'm not judging programing of instruments based how close it to real stuff but how good and "realistic" they sounds. With realistic I mean some kind of imperfection in the sound. Variations of dynamics, loudness and humanization and ofc not perfect quantization.

I included some numbers for all to compare each track statistics.

In every track here there is small DC offset. I found that adding HP filter 48 dB/oct at 20Hz can remove most of problems regarding DC offset. For better result apply HP brickwall at 20 Hz. Not sure if any human can hear 20Hz and bellow and if any system can playback this low frequency. DC offset is an offsetting of a signal from zero that can cause problems when you are trying maximize loudness. Not to mention sometimes audible clicks and distortion. By removing DC offset you can gain very small room that can be used used better to maximize overall loudness.
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becsei_gyorgy - Fall of Themyscira
You said this is your 2nd track in your life which is bit odd because tools and instruments you used are saying something different. As whole the composition is good. It looks like you were trying to copy Nightwish. I'm not saying Nightwish is bad but we already have real Nightwish so there is no need to another copy. It is better to get just inspired rather then copying something. Rhythm guitar sounds good but it looks like the same pattern is used in whole track over and over with just one additional pattern in first part. Operatic voice (Ethera) suits the track very well. Oceania choir in last part is great. Lead guitar sounds synthetic especially exposed part starting at 1:10 to 1:30. There are just two simple pattern with that lead. Theme was Symphony of Guitars but there is only rhythm guitar with strings, voice and choir. Lead guitar is more like just small addition or rather said bonus. Sustain strings sounds (for example in 1:30 to 1:50) sterile. Same dynamics makes them sounds synthetic. Mix doesn't sounds bad but looks like you pump the volume track more that it should be and I hear some artifacts because of this. It is kind of you have gone for CD master instead of stream version.

Max momentary loudness -6,2 LUFS
Max short term loudness -7,32 LUFS
Integrated loudness -10,16 LUFS
Loudness range 15,41 LU
True peak L -0,31 dB
True peak R -0,31 dB
DC offset L -0,010% (-80,4 dB)
DC offset R +0,005% (-85,7 dB)
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gruskada - Transclusion
I do like the composition very much. It changes and evolve whole time. I do like your style . That composition is like standing in river. Whole time new things coming but you still know that you standing in the same river. Great but track feels more like Symphonic Rock and not metal. What I miss here is heavy rhythm guitar Chugging that are characteristic for metal. I miss little more air and little bit of low frequency power. Especially miss that low power. Whole mix sounds bit muddy. By the numbers and visually in graph it looks balanced but sometimes numbers lie and it is better to use ears instead.

Max momentary loudness -9,4 LUFS
Max short term loudness -10,49 LUFS
Integrated loudness -14,33 LUFS
Loudness range 9,4 LU
True peak L -0,1748 dB
True peak R -0,1764 dB
DC offset L -0,117% (-58,6 dB)
DC offset R +0,107% (-59,4 dB)
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Mellow_Browne - All_White_Key
Nice tune. What I find interesting that even there is same loop/pattern over whole track it doesn't get that boring. Like the that repeating pattern is building the feeling in this track and this theme. Like life where we are forced to do same things over and over and we have to endure this to move forward. Atmosphere is great. Track feel more like rock-pop. Mix sounds balanced but the stage should be better. The reverb creates nice room but also glue whole things too much together.

Max momentary loudness -9,87 LUFS
Max short term loudness -11,34 LUFS
Integrated loudness -14,2 LUFS
Loudness range 7,2 LU
True peak L -1,7791 dB
True peak R -1,7397 dB
DC offset L -0,002% (-93,6 dB)
DC offset R -0,003% (-91,1 dB)
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OlliH - UninvitedGuest
First of all that voices are bit annoying but what I do not really like is overall feel and realism of instruments. Every and I mean every instrument feels lifeless and sound very artificial. Same dynamic level whole time. Especially audible in more exposed parts like in intro or in the part starting at 1:18 with viola and choir again. I'm not viola player or singer but I'm sure every person will have problem to play or sing on same amplitude in real world. There is always some imperfections in sound. Your instruments are really digital sounding one and close to perfection that makes them sound worse . Composition is nice but for metal I miss heavy rhythm guitar part. Mix sounds good, some tonal balance is there and also stage.

Max momentary loudness -11,18 LUFS
Max short term loudness -12,01 LUFS
Integrated loudness -15,62 LUFS
Loudness range 11,9 LU
True peak L -1,6014 dB
True peak R -1,6161 dB
DC offset L -0,002% (-95,0 dB)
DC offset R +0,000% (-111,1 dB)
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SimaGT - Gates
The track is closest one to the selected genre and theme. Composition is nice. Rhythm guitar sounds good. Lead guitar need little more work. I like the part starting at 1:47 up to 2:40. Only what I do not like in this part is same drum part that is kick - snare - kick - snare pattern whole time. The worst part in this track is symphonic stuff. Everything sounds like general midi going through old roland sound canvas. Especially strings and choir sounds midish. Drums are very dry compared to strings which are drowned in reverb making it sounds like they are coming from another room while drummer is right in front of you. Like overall mood and atmosphere of track. Mix is bit hollow. Stage here but also broken because of very different reverb type and amount across instruments. With more work on instrument sounds and mix this will be my top pick for selected genre and theme but overall sound and mix make it hard to enjoy the track.

Max momentary loudness -7,32 LUFS
Max short term loudness -8,7 LUFS
Integrated loudness -11,29 LUFS
Loudness range 3,03 LU
True peak L +0,0843 dB (9 samples clipped)
True peak R +0,1899 dB (9 samples clipped)
DC offset L +0,000% (-109,6 dB)
DC offset R +0,000% (-107,2 dB)
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I would like to give everyone 10 pts but it is not possible.