Mix Challenge

City Background:



I tried to make this piece out of chords and texture and de-emphasize melody, given the fact that it is not supposed to be 'epic'. The rhythmic texture is meant to represent e.g. trains. I do have chords that are too dissonant, and I'm not sure the minor chords I have really bring to mind the industrial sector or the more run-down or mismanaged parts of the residential/commercial district.
I hope I tweaked the pluck well enough.

Software Used:

Dragonfly Reverb (Plate and Room)
Limited Z v2
Limiter No6

OrilRiver Reverb
PG-8X
Modartt Pianoteq 8 x 3


Surge XT
Synful Orchestra
Synth1
TDR Nova

MAudio:
MComb
MCompressor
MEqualizer
MXComp

Cockos:
ReaEQ
ReaLimit

Airwindows:
Capacitor2
Pressure5

The devs wrote:

Indie Developers wrote: Hello @Doc Jon,

Thank you for your very interesting entry. This is most appreciated.

We legit did not expect to have such an interesting audio experience, you took us quite for a ride here. So yes, you definitely understood the brief and then some. Our only complaint is the flanging / reverb-y drum loop and the occasional harsh transition. But this is personal preference. The rest is probably down to fine tuning.

What a nice and surprising entry, please keep it up.

Staff Commentary:

Okay, wow... I did not expect that. Quite the ride if we talk "audio storytelling". If this is mostly stock content, I should update my copy of Cubase (and yes, Halion 7 is also on my radar).

As with all other entries, there are two types of experiences. One with PC Speakers (2", small ones) and one with studio headphones. On headphones you do hear a lot of intricate details, while on small speakers, some stuff is getting drowned out. In your case, the balance is mostly okay.

My concern are the "flanged drums" (0:52 mark and 3:00 mark), that also sound like they come from the far side/back of your head. If you used Binaural Mixing in Cubase 13, that's an interesting concept. I wouldn't push it as far though. The first transition from ambient parts to the drum loop is also a bit harsh on first listen, while the second transition (tape stop effect) is both unexpected and absolutely fantastic. The more I listen (which is usually like 4-7 times per entry while writing feedback), it actually grows on me. But maybe you can find just a subtle transition.

Other than that, overall great mix. Maybe a bit "dynamically limited" -- but this actually works in the concept of a video game (often, songs in video game engines are heavily compressed). The the Navia Harp does feel a bit out of place on headphones (reverb yet again). However, this is personal preference. It works.

I'd say the only things you should look at, are some transitions, maybe the occasional volume automation. The rest is absolutely fine.

I hope you can work with that.

The devs wrote:

Indie Developers wrote: Hello @Crosshatched,

Thank you for your time and song proposal.

This is quite a minimalist approach to the brief, but your chord structure and textures have sparked our interest. However, the more we listen, the more we miss a certain additional percussive element, like a more laid-back drum loop to balance things out. You can only listen to mutating triads for so long.

This is definitely an interesting approach that can go multiple ways... either "stay as is", or go a bit more bold (drum grooves, more mutating / syncopating of the synths in the background)

Please keep at it - we're curious about the final version.

Staff Commentary:

Another entry where I'm not sure if this is a "scratch track", or already the mostly finished product. Although this time around, I am impressed by the story telling through the chord structures and slightly mutating textures. As mentioned "by the clients", I would still try a version with some... more. Definitely a more relaxed / laid-back (maybe even slightly lofi) drum loop, maybe some transition effects. Just to see if this elevates things a bit further.

It is also interesting to see what you made out of Pianoteq... three different ones layered at the same time. A Stage Piano, a Harpsichord like piano, and a more bright one for the chords. I think, in some cases you did want to go the 1980s typical "Piano + DX7" route - at least this is the impression I have. Or maybe the sound of the Yamaha CP-70/CP-80 (check out the Modartt "KIViR project" if you want to know more). It does work in some sections, but for the whole song... I'm not so sure. It does feel a bit out of place on small speakers vs headphones (as with every entry so far). However, on speakers the synths do gel a bit more than on headphones.

There are also the occasional missed notes (errors, e.g. the one note at 1:02) - unless that was intentional. Yet I think this wouldn't work here. Overall, I would also add a bit "more" here... as mentioned before, I am not extremely well versed in harmony theory, yet I would love to hear some subtle "counters" in the background. As of this moment, the synths (synth orchestra, synthesizers) and pianos play mostly the same.

Those are the main things that stand out to me.
I would also maybe experiment a bit more with delays rather than reverbs alone. Although, if you do stick to reverbs, maybe turn some of them "more warm" to have a contrast between the instruments.

Oh and... filename template, please.


Interesting approach to the brief. Let's see what the final version will be about.

I spent every free time I have for last 2 days to finish the track. Was thinking to skip this round because it does not matter but then I saw the post and theme and then I decided to do what ever I can in order not to miss because of Mister Fox acting as client and giving feedback. This itself is already a win for each participant joining this round.

Now some info about my idea and approach. Since it should be game music I wanted to do more suspense simple music for background but then I read that it should be music for presentation. So I decided to add more bite to the track and go bit beyond. I still provided some tension like ambience there in start and end for "nothing happens" part in game. First think when I read about theme and about city building my my thinks about arpeggio and ostinato. It paints the image of pasting one block after another in quick succession for a while after all this block merged together create different buildings starting from roads up to high rise buildings. I choose few arps there to fuel this idea. I have tried to do traditional 4/4 rhythm for whole track but those arps and some other rhythmic parts are all triplets. Track start with some ambiences, then go through the arp part to represent city building parts and then go to middle part that should represent the storm or any other natural disaster. Since information provided by client are bit sparse so I just concentrated mostly on provided year 2030. For me it is still future so I decided to go again with my personal favorite hybrid music where electronica meet some classic sounds. This may be the issue since there is also in description no epic music. Although I'm not sure what this word really mean but in my track there elements that may be mistaken with epic music. I just use the sound to support the mood and the theme and my idea that I have in head to paint those vibrations.


What was used to create the track:

The devs wrote:

Indie Developers wrote: Hello @TrojakEW,

Thank you for your entry, we really appreciate the work you put into this.

This song feels minimalist, but is actually far from it. We like the subtle darker tone and contrast of organic versus synthetic tones. An unexpected audio experience for sure. You definitely understood the brief, and this can work in the context of our game.

I think the only thing we would like to see addressed, is the sometimes perceived parts that are "out of time" (e.g. 2:00min part). Other than that, we don't have any complaints

Please keep it up - you're nearly there!

Staff Commentary:

Once more, quite the sonic journey that definitely embodies "tech demo meets visual presentation" -- amazing work you've put into this. This could work in a city builder, but also in a puzzle game series like the "Myst" games. I really liked

As usual... do listen to the entry on various playback mediums, everyone.

On headphones, there is so, so much more going on. Intricate details with a low shaking bass and drones, blips and bloops from synths, the occasional subtle sound effect, the mutating and "moving" synths (in the stereo field). Although in hindsight... there could be a tad more movement (while listening on headphones). Maybe use a M/S tool and drag out the sides a bit (+20%) in the more busy parts of the song. The "Machine Clicking" noises in the first half of the song also feel a bit loud (especially on headphones), while the "bass drum" of the more electronic beat is more like for "feels" than "Oh hey, let me please introduce myself. I would look at those two instruments and maybe shift one down by -1dB, and the other up by +1dB. Subtle adjustment, possible huge impact. If it doesn't work out, don't touch it.

As mentioned by the "clients", there is the occasional synth melody part that feels a bit out of time/not properly aligned. This is most notable around the 2:02 minute mark. This could be due to various things... Buffer issues, MIDI offsets, we'll never know. Just maybe double check again. Our ears are quite sensitive to such things.

Overall - great balance that works well on small speakers and headphones. The rest is down to fine-tuning, cross-referencing on other devices, etc. It also isn't as "epic" as you feared it might be. With "EPIC" I mean... obnoxious horns and horn swells, loud and centered taiko drums and toms, plus the "always bombastic" tutti-type choir/orchestra. Your entry "scrapes" a bit in that direction, yes. But it still fits the bill.


Please finish / fine-tune this song. I'd really love to hear the final edit.

Also, thank you for the kind words on how this month's game is handled. Appreciated.

Mister Fox wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 19, 2024 10:54 CEST

I hope this helps.

It does.
Even if I don't know yet how to fix all issues you mentioned, it helped me to get out a version I like better than the original WIP.

Great to read, @KukoBass.



A friendly reminder:

Today is the final where you can get feedback to your first song submission. Every new entry that is being submitted by 21-JUL-2024 23:59 UTC+2/CEST (Central Europe), will get feedback within a timely manner, but no later than 22-JUL2024 23:59 UTC+2 (Central Europe).

If you've been sitting on the fence, now is the time to participate.

I'm posting a quote of my Rev2 edit for visibility, since edited original posts don't seem to automatically show up at the tail of the thread and thus people might miss it otherwise:

juhu wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 14, 2024 01:57 CEST

Hi,

1) Enjoy my city-building tune called "Sidewalk Mogul" (Rev2):
http://tinkerstate.com/mix-challenge/SW ... _Mogul.wav

2) Documentation below (click on "SHOW" to expand):

► Show Spoiler

Changes for Rev2:

• Rearranged the musical form to better fit the presentation mode of the game (as opposed to gameplay mode where perhaps the music would be more of a background element), as follows:

  1. added a banger intro that reinforces the impact of the title screen of the presentation;
     

  2. introduced a couple key-changes during the track in order to keep the ear fresh and the audience engaged throughout the presentation /slash game demo;
  3. added one more encore of the main theme before the coda kicks in, with even more interplay between the flute and the piano;

  4. added more cowbell here and there, because… “needs more cowbell!”
• Adjusted the reverb sends and EQ-ed the reverb buses so that all instruments now feel like they are being played in the same room together;
• Added auto-filter on the snare to make it less bright and blend in with the song better.

Original Rev1 documentation below (this version is still available for download with a _R1 filename suffix for those interested in comparing the revisions):

Hang on a minute - who is a sidewalk mogul anyway?! Perhaps someone who has amassed serious wealth by being in the business of sidewalk-construction? I don’t know for sure, but it was a random thought that sounded funny to me, and so a song title was born!

My inspiration for the general vibe of the tune clearly came from a well-known DOS game called Transport Tycoon - the quintessential city-building vibe if you ask me!

All instruments (drum kit, bass guitar, piano, flute) are Logic Pro’s stock presets (“Studio R&B+”, “Punchy Bottom”, “Flute Solo”, “Yamaha Grand Piano”, respectively) that were slightly adjusted by myself to fit the tune, and were recorded mostly in real-time using a MIDI keyboard (61SL MkII) by myself. Similar sections were then copy-pasted to save time, and occasionally a few notes were modified by hand using the mouse, in order to create some melodic variation, also a few note velocities were tamed manually here and there.

Mixing and mastering was done by myself using mostly Logic’s stock plugins, plus SSL Master Bus Compressor plugin. Also had Voxengo SPAN plugin on master bus for spectrum display, but that one was turned off during the final bounce.

This concludes my documentation.

Good Day All,

As the summer months go for me, there are quite a few more additional chores to be done around the home, so free time is at a premium. I had to skip a couple of months because of this, but am glad to be back. I do spend time daily in the DAW, so I have a lot of unfinished ideas. This is one of them that I have modified, tweaked, enlarged, and molded to perhaps fit the description in the brief.
Here's my entry for the competition(final entry updated 7/24):

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ixvnxc0j ... seq7q&dl=0

After receiving detailed feedback from Mister Fox, I did my best in the small amount of time to correct some of my mixing mistakes, as well as attempt to make my track more presentable for the game. I have an enormous amount to learn about mixing...perhaps that is an understatement. But I love creating and playing music. My initial idea was to create more of an uplifting tone, which may be too epic..idk. My first mix had "train" type vibes with SFX and trailer sounds, but after review, it didn't fit and sounded out of place. The only way I've ever learned anything well is by making mistakes(sometimes BIG ones), and learning from them.

The devs wrote:

Indie Developers wrote: Hello @Chasey24,

Thank you for submitting your song. Your work and ideas are appreciated.

Truth be told, we did not expect such a mix of genres. Yet this is why we reached out - to find creative minds that could add to our vision. You got our attention. And yes, we could definitely work with a song like that.

What we did notice though, is that the instruments are a bit all over the place. It feels like as if the guitars are all fighting for their own space, then certain "epic trailer sounds" taking over, only to get back to the 1990s inspired Pop Rock (with sadly a cheap-ish guitar tone). We're not saying this is bad, but it does stand out.

You've got something interesting going on with your song - but we do hope you'll fine-tune a bit more.

Staff Commentary:

Okay... here I am a bit undecided on whether or not this fits the premise. On one end, the task was to "show off" a bit. On the other, it also clearly stated to "not go epic". And here is this Rock Ballad type song, with a lot(!) of "Epic Cinematic Sounds" from Keep-forest and Soundpaint.

I don't want to label this entry as "task failed", because as "the clients" said... there is something interesting going on. And this month's game also has a focus to learn how to interpret things, and adjust your mix accordingly. Even if the feedback is vague (I've been there!). Which is why I also do the additional staff commentary. As usual... two different experiences with PC speakers vs studio headphones. But you can also clearly hear more intricate details, and where to maybe adjust things. And there is a lot you can still do.

Let's start with the drums, since those are the center elements (aside from the rhythm guitars). I assume this is an altered preset from BFD Player... sadly a bit too heavily processed. The snare for example is centering the overall sound of your song. It's heavily compressed and slightly mid heavy. If you give the snare a bit more room to breathe (as in: ease up on gates/compression, getting better transients and hopefully some sustain back as well), this would give your song a bit more relaxed rather than "driving" feel. The hats could also be just a tad more lively (again, slightly back up on the compression - e.g. if there is a parallel room bus running at -8dBFS, maybe pull it down to -10dBFS - small change, huge impact).

The next big standout topic are the guitars. And I assume they come from Impact Soundworks (Hydra and Telos), and either 8DIO or something else for the acoustics. The 12-string guitar fights way too much for space with the power-chord guitars. On headphones, it's not as apparent, but definitely on small speakers. They are a tad too loud, and constantly jump from L to R, as if there is a chorus going on (I am aware, this might be double-tracked). This is a bit distracting. They are also very upper mid heavy, so an EQ to "soften"/"mellow" them is mandatory IMHO. In fact, both the 12-string and the 6-string Western after the bass drop (which I'll get to), while they can be a bit more midrange heavy during the E-guitar parts. Slight compression also helps.

Next on the task list are the power chords... and no, the amp does not do them any favors I'm afraid. I don't think that changing the amp to a more low-end heavy one would offer instant better fitting results -- but switching amp cabinets definitely will (switching from a 4x12 V30 to a 2x T-75 would already change a lot!). I would also use an additional slight compression / booster pedal combo in front of the amp to "overdrive" the amp more... The way it's currently sounding feels very artificial and "cheap".

The E-Guitars (Power Chords) could really need some love, plus a proper blending with the 12 String Guitars (they are the "subtle" bright element). The guitars are also fairly narrow in the stereo field (except for the "helicopter chugging" part at 1:12 - which is not only super wide, but also way too loud!). I know that ISW Guitars have a "Double Tracking" feature, but I was never a fan of that, or the panning. Maybe try playing / recording the guitars individually, so that the double tracking feels a bit more natural, alive and "spread out" (due to not being "tightly quantized"), plus slightly stronger panning. Funny enough, the lead guitar is good (with some exceptions jumping between melody and pinch harmonics - this transition is a bit weird). Although personally (for this genre), I'd add some more (ducking) delay during the solo parts, and maybe a touch of 3,3kHz EQ boost (while cutting the guitar like 50Hz higher with a low cut filter) -- this should also raise the instrument by about 1dB in terms of perceived volume.

Also, where is the E-bass, please? Maybe add some string noises with a carefully placed EQ boost (around 2,5kHz area). I want to hear a bit more from NI's Session Bassist - Prime Bass. Not just subtle in the last third of the song.

Then on to the more subtle parts... I do hear a piano type sound on headphones, very, very subtle. But not on speakers. Same goes for some synths. I get the "must be felt, not heard" type deal. But you added this "ear-candy" for a reason, why not let that poke through a bit more? I also hear that the strings actually have a rhythm in certain sections, but the way it is mixed, it feels like a constant pad sound. Hint HInt: 2,5kHz range, or (depending on the string section) also 4,2kHz to 4,8kHz or an octave higher than that.

What definitely needs some work, are the sound FX and transition noises. The "epicness" that really throws you for a loop. While I don't dislike your ideas, they can be improved. For example the mechanical noises from Fallout Music "Steampunk" feel a little bit loud, only to drop instantly once the 12-string acoustic kicks in. This is a bit out of place. Same goes for the mechanical noise and "bass drum" (which also feel as if they're flanged). If possible, maybe reduce that added effect here, have a more dry sound, work with the volume balance of your layers before the rock part sets in. Then around the 2:09min mark, there is a "marching"/clapping noise that fades in, but cuts out once a slightly reversed cymbal and the drum kicks back in. This could maybe also see a better transition.

And then the infamous cinematic bass BOOM (from Keep-forest Devastator Deathmatch)... yeah, uh... sorry. Interesting idea, yet the reason why this is so out of place here is: a) it actually feels like you cut off half a bar of your song, b) instead of just a "whoooom" type sound it's also a "BWOOoooooom", c) due to the way this sound was created... it's super wide, super chorus-y. If you want to keep this transition effect, adjust the placement, remove the "kick" transient, "narrow" the sound (to be more mono - M/S tools are your friend), roll off the high end frequencies a bit, and then towards the end fade in some long delay/reverb combo to transition into the next part. Else, it just cuts off while you have the Tom/Kick Drum transition, then nothing, then "oh hey... happy go lucky, have this totally fitting and loud 6-string acoustic guitar". And while we're at transitions... 3:21... volume, more reverb/delay to "gel" things a bit more. At least this is what I would do.


The TL;DR is basically:
Volume Adjustments (maybe even suitable automation of both volume and filters), make more room for your instruments in the frequency spectrum, reduce on over-processing (drums), give your rhythm guitars (power chords) a slightly different sound, adjust transition effects (reverb/delay)... check that things work well on headphones and speakers.

This is the most extensive feedback I've given to an entry this month. As mentioned, a lot of potential. You still got about 2,5 days left to fine-tune things. If you got the time, please do so.

I hope this helps with your mix.