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Re: MIX CHALLENGE - MC093 August 2023 - Mix Round 1 in evaluation
Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2023 07:44 CEST
by Dodgingrain
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Haha yeah, I fully admitted my laziness. If it makes you feel better, I got RVox for free as a holiday freebie. And I got Vocal Rider in one of Waves “one time only” sales for pretty cheap.
I fully agree that these plugins are gimmicks. And I also agree that my use of them did not suit my mix.
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Nothing wrong with using vocal rider or RVox. They do give a certain sound vs using a compressor or lots of automation. RVox, with other stuff, is a pretty common tool in a few genres in the States for lead vocals. Gaz's track wouldn't be something that normally would get vocal rider though but use what works for you, who cares what anyone other than the client says, lol.
Re: MIX CHALLENGE - MC093 August 2023 - Mix Round 1 in evaluation
Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2023 07:55 CEST
by Dodgingrain
scottfitz wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2023 21:26 CEST
Something I've learnt on this challenge and on other recent projects is: don't try too hard to make something sound different to how it was recorded. Like on this recording, I heard the drums and decided abruptly that the kick 'didn't have much low end' and so set about making it into a gigantic booming low kick. All this achieved was then ruining the balance that the band played with, all their musicianship to make the tones of their instruments sing together was steamrolled over so that I could get to hear my big kick. Then you start to realise that although tonally the kick is more like what I'd hoped, that the audio doesn't quite move in the way that a lower kick would, it sounds weird so then I would need further processing to tighten it up. In the end if a band records with a smaller drum, then enjoy what is nice about that drum and forget about some personal desire that it was bigger.
It's tricky because some of my desires are good for mixing - give the sound more clarity, make the balance between the frequencies more even, try to get the emotion in the song to come across. Other desires need to be set aside, things like 'I'd have liked a bigger kick drum'. I guess you could summarise this by saying
work with the band on what they were trying to achieve, rather than to question their sounds and trying to change aspects.
cheers all.
Yah, gotta serve the song and the artist first..... unless the artist doesn't have a sound yet like a newer band still figuring out what works where they might need help from the mixer on that but that's not the case with Gaz.
Re: MIX CHALLENGE - MC093 August 2023 - Mix Round 1 in evaluation
Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 14:01 CEST
by 1ktone
Dodgingrain wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 07:55 CEST
scottfitz wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2023 21:26 CEST
Yah, gotta serve the song and the artist first..... unless the artist doesn't have a sound yet like a newer band still figuring out what works where they might need help from the mixer on that but that's not the case with Gaz.
I would say in this situation that in his intro Gaz appeared to leave the door reasonably wide open in regards to how we should approach the mix. I didn’t get the feeling that it had to sound like the demo, but maybe I misinterpreted that part of this process. It appeared as if he was open to different interpretations. Probably should have asked the artist a few more questions at the beginning.
Re: MIX CHALLENGE - MC093 August 2023 - Mix Round 1 in evaluation
Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 17:53 CEST
by Beja
Good morning to all participants.
I found some talks interesting and that's why I decided to publish.
Time
Many of us spend time waiting, waiting for the results, forms, feedback, comments and even contributions from the author.-
However, this time can be used so that learning can prevail.
At this point in the contest, we have all submitted a mix, that is, our way of seeing the song. Our vision.
This is where it is important to ask yourself: Time has been important when delivering our mixes. Because now there is more time!
I can see that one might think at this point that some kind of feedback on the work done is necessary for this
change and move forward. However, this is only taking part of all the learning that one can take away.
I go back to the mix and change the parameters if she was not in the excel spreadsheet. I correct them and the mixture is now fine.
It is not important whether I have the possibility of presenting it again or not, because this has already represented learning for me.
I continue working on my mix if she has the chance or has moved on to another round. Since I have received a ton
of learning, and if I don't apply it, it will be lost.
I go back in time: Is the work in the same technical and mixing conditions today as the day it was sent?
Plugins:
Probably another of the mixing learnings that I have extracted from reading the forum is related to Gaz's voice.
Regardless of how the plugins work, I would like to know what the vision has been, that is, if it is possible,
talk about what you have been looking for when processing the voice.
This is important for my learning because depending on it it will be the tool to select.
I'll put it in examples:
In this mix, I have sought to obtain:
A voice with details?
A close voice?
a metallic voice?
a voice with some almost imperceptible distortion?
I believe that the selection of any of these approaches, or many others that are part of our creative sides, are
the most important, since depending on the approach the tool (Plugin) can be chosen. Never ever the other way around.
For me there is no single plugin to treat the voice. The difficulty in using it lies in reading the manufacturer's specifications.
It is also important for me to determine the approach I am talking about, since if the plugin cannot give me the result
what I'm looking for, I'm sure it's not the correct plugin for this mix.-
As always, special thanks to Gaz and Mr. Fox and warm regards to the entire forum.
Buenas mezclas !!!
Beja
Re: MIX CHALLENGE - MC093 August 2023 - Mix Round 1 in evaluation
Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 02:51 CEST
by scottfitz
PistolPete wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 02:56 CEST
I've listened to my mix a ton of times already since I entered it... for some reason this song really sticks to me and each time I listen to it I think of more little "tweaks" and special fx I wish I would have added....
2 things I hate about my mix I noticed after listening on different devices (car, BT headphones, studio cans, studio monitors..etc). And will fix if I make it to round 2.
1. On one of the radio samples in the beginning and during a quieter part later in the song... I think one of my plugins, or automation must be triggering a huge gain swing where I can hear a background static build up, almost like a compressor is overpushing the gain of background noise. In the beginning of the track, it almost works as it kind of sounds like the radio static, but also is very noticible. Definitely wish I would have caught this before I entered my mix.
2. I first mixed the song, then listened to it for about a week and then went back to the mix to fix things I wanted to change. When he was talking about the guns firing, I wanted to tweak the snare to have a very sharp and loud snap, almost like gun shots and then tone it down back for the rest of the mix.. I achieved the snap of the snare I was looking for, but I forgot to automate the sound for just that part and so the snare is overly loud and snappy through the track.Some parts it blends well and isn't noticeable, but others it definitely is sharper and louder than it should be. This would definitely be something I would fix in round 2.
and editing this post because I found 2 more things I wish I did better....
3. I wish I would have positioned the HH and crashes with more wideness and reverb in the stereo field as they need to be slightly more present I think in the mix.
4. I wish I would have added a little more "doubling" to a FX send on the main Vox and automated it to impact parts of the vocals that were more intense.
If anyone would like to listen to my mix and provide feedback. I definitely always appreciate another's trained ears.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/16HB6CY ... drive_link
I've also been curious, what is everyones studio environment they are working in? specifically your monitoring/room situation. I can definitely hear that some people must really have their rooms dialed in as month after month they deliver very consistent sounds. Always have been curious.
I currently have a small bedroom studio, use a 12 year old PC with cubase 10.5 pro, 2 PM5 Fostex monitors that I bought about 20 something years ago and use some Sennheiser HD280 cans to monitor. Cheap Steinberg UR22 interface and Presonus Central station for monitor control. I do have broad spectrum audio "blankets" hung on each wall to minimize some direct interference (and not piss off my neighbors). Just curious what others are working with....
Hi,
please note that I'm not that good at mixing, it's a work in progress for me, but I do believe in helping people who I can hear are making a few of the 'mistakes' that I used to.
1) top end of reverb sounds a little be grainy and out on it's own. this is easily rectified using EQ on the reverb channel or inside the reverb plugin that you've used. This is not a 'mistake' as such and perhaps you really wanted it to be like this for some artistic reason, in which case please go ahead and express this. However, it came across to me like a reverb which didn't quite fit with the other sounds.
2) the vocal level on intro sounds a little unstable, like the vocal rider is badly letting you down. what you should try doing is to listen to your mix with and without the vocal rider, then with again, then without again etc. really hear what it does and ask yourself if you want that.
3) When the bass enters it's huge, but then is already disappearing on the first low note at 1:00 I wasn't sure why this would be as you've indicated a minimal amount of processing of the tracks. Check to see if you've got a drastic HPF somewhere which is affecting that low note much more than the others. The bass is generally too dominant and this is the main thing you need to fix. A plugin like Izotope tonal balance control can help you to visually check what you're hearing and quickly see if there's way too much energy in the 70Hz - 200Hz area like it sounds to me. It could be that you have a room/set up letting you down in which that area of the sound is not well represented. If this is a possibility then you should make frequent checks with headphones to compare the two. Another potential problem is if you work on the music quietly and never turn it up. Our ears change their ability to hear the frequency spectrum as the volume goes up and so if you only listen quietly you'll not hear enough bass and so respond by turning it up too high. If you check the higher volume it should be obvious that there's too much.
4) in the loud section with the guitar solo the drums seem to be peaking? there's something that feels like it's hammering away at my ear, so I would say you need to check your gain staging/levels on individual tracks and busses for something that's become too hot.
You have also done plenty of things well enough, but mixing is like football in that one big problem player will wreck the whole team. The bass is my number one suspect before I've even listened to any music for which element will be the source of issues. For me, usually the bass is the most sensitive, most important and most difficult track to handle and so I recommend to spend like at least 3 times the amount of time as on other tracks. Everyone will say the vocal is most important, yes OK, but it's kind of obvious when the vocal is out so people intuitively sort it out and in any case it doesn't destroy all the other instruments when it is out, whereas the bass is like a wrecking ball to the track. It's so easy in mixing to spend hours down rabbit holes wondering about whether the stereo width is best or tiny details about the saturation of one instrument etc. but the main meat of the mix is the balance of instruments and if this isn't so good then it's all over no matter how good you are at all the fancy stuff.
Hope this helps and good luck going forward
Re: MIX CHALLENGE - MC093 August 2023 - Mix Round 1 in evaluation
Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 14:38 CEST
by Gaz
Hello everyone,
sorry to keep you waiting but I can now list the 15 mixes I have selected to go through to the next round. Firstly it was quite difficult to choose as so many mixes were excellent but unfortunately the rules state only 15 can progress so apologies to those who haven't made the cut.
The 15 are as follows:
Christoph K
OzgenSabuncu
Dodgingrain
Trackerjack
Hoek
LughSenderson
Havol
ari5to5
scotfitz
jw
Mork
1970studio
O’Mix
RuiFerreira
asiohead
A few things that I noticed across many of the mixes were that this particular song due to the arrangement and dynamics means that each section needs to be carefully mixed relative to the narrative. Many of the mixes that I didn't select I felt were not sensitive enough to the changes. I appreciate that it takes a lot of time and effort to automate a mix like this but thats what this kind of music requires. Some of the mixes that didn't make the cut had sections which sounded fantastic but other sections suffered. A common thing I found was for the drums to be too dominant. Powerful drums are definitely required during the heavier sections but need to come off the gas during the lighter moments. I felt that maybe too much reliance on plugins to level out the dynamics had adverse affects and I think automation is key.
Things I'd like to see in general for the next round are the following:
1. More automations in place of heavy dynamic processing
2. Better balancing of my lead vocals with the other vocals. I should have mentioned before that I favour an equal balance when we are all singing. The last chorus in particular my voice should be somewhat similar to the others.
3. On the subject of my lead vocal. Due to how exposed it is in many parts of the song I feel that special EQ attention is needed. I have certain frequencies that are a bit too pointed and I think there needs to be some mid range cuts to make it feel broader and not so harsh.
4. A mistake of mine was to include the piano on the intro to the very heavy battle sequence. This should be an organ driven section. The piano was a guide track. By all means layer the piano if you want but please emphasise the organ. This is the loudest and most driven part of the song and needs to be punchy and in your face.
5. A few of the entries applied lots of spacey effects on the vocals. I liked this and would encourage an experimental approach here especially during the quieter sections.
6. I really want to feel that last chorus being as big and as full as possible. The acoustic guitars are key here as they give a rhythmic lift. Try wide panning of them and maybe some low cut to make them crispy and rhythmical. Perhaps refer to the included original demo as I feel that last chorus sounds great on that.
7. I like dryer mixes overall with judicious effects applied to certain elements. Reverb should have automations so it's more expansive in the spacious and slower sections and dry and upfront in the heavier parts.
8. We were unashamedly making this song in a seventies style and as such the mix should reflect that. I am a massive fan of the sound of The Yes Album by Yes, Crime of the Century by Supertramp, Power and the Glory by Gentle Giant, Sheet Music by 10cc and probably most obviously mid 70s Queen. Perhaps reference some of these for pointers of mix balancing.
Ok that's it for now. Over the next few days I'll try and return to the mixes for individual evaluations but I thought the points above are general and should apply to everyone's approach.
Thanks again to everyone for taking part and huge thanks to Mr Fox for organising it.
Gaz
MIX CHALLENGE - MC093 August 2023 - Mix Round 1 in evaluation
Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 16:56 CEST
by Mister Fox
Just a quick heads up for everyone.
I'm in touch with @Gaz regarding individual feedback for the Top 15 entries, or if the current feedback is enough as "starting point". I hope we can sort this topic out within the next 24 to 48 hours absolute maximum.
To those that are listed, you can already start to take a closer look at your mix, think about possible adjustments. However, please do not post your entry yet. I will send out the usual reminders once Mix Round 2 starts officially.
Thank you for your patience.
Re: MIX CHALLENGE - MC093 August 2023 - Mix Round 1 in evaluation
Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 05:09 CEST
by rvalle
Well, this was a challenge in which I invested time and dedication to create a mix that would please. The song is very good and I had a lot of fun working on it. I really liked the result I got. Every time I heard my finished mix, I thought I had achieved a very good result. I still do. But it was clear now that the band was looking for a result that was very close to the references that were mentioned. Even though it was said in the contest presentation that a modern approach might be welcome. That's where I went wrong, since I only took into account my taste and the things I usually listen to. I even worked more creatively than I usually do when it came to effects and ambience. I was particularly happy with the result of the radio effect, which I thought was very similar to the voice coming from such a device. I also really liked the result of the backing vocals, which were controlled and fitted in well with the lead vox. And, as one of the points here is learning, at this challenge I discovered that the simplest can be the best option in some cases. There are many excellent mixes and I hope the best one wins. Thanks to
@Gaz and the band for the opportunity. Good luck to everyone.
Re: MIX CHALLENGE - MC093 August 2023 - Mix Round 1 in evaluation
Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 09:00 CEST
by Manii
rvalle wrote: ↑Tue Sep 19, 2023 05:09 CEST
Well, this was a challenge in which I invested time and dedication to create a mix that would please. The song is very good and I had a lot of fun working on it. I really liked the result I got. Every time I heard my finished mix, I thought I had achieved a very good result. I still do. But it was clear now that the band was looking for a result that was very close to the references that were mentioned. Even though it was said in the contest presentation that a modern approach might be welcome. That's where I went wrong, since I only took into account my taste and the things I usually listen to. I even worked more creatively than I usually do when it came to effects and ambience. I was particularly happy with the result of the radio effect, which I thought was very similar to the voice coming from such a device. I also really liked the result of the backing vocals, which were controlled and fitted in well with the lead vox. And, as one of the points here is learning, at this challenge I discovered that the simplest can be the best option in some cases. There are many excellent mixes and I hope the best one wins. Thanks to @Gaz and the band for the opportunity. Good luck to everyone.
I can totally relate to your message regarding my mix as well. However the band know the song since years so it's probably very difficult to embrase a new sound. Indeed it was stated that a modern approach could be fun, but this was for sure not the easy path. In my experience, I found that when artists let you try new things, they mostly still prefer the sound they are used to and easily overlook your propositions, which is totally normal I think. Speaking of this topic, this video is also very explanatory :
I listened to your mix and I also think it's a great mix that deserve its place. But at the end, the artist is the one that gives the direction and knows the best what the song needs. This contest was also a great learning experience for myself, and congratulations to all that made it to round 2. Thank you again Gaz and the band for providing us this song. Very rare to be able to work on such masterpieces!
Re: MIX CHALLENGE - MC093 August 2023 - Mix Round 1 in evaluation
Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 14:26 CEST
by 1ktone
Congratulations to the chosen ones. I wish you all the best for round 2.
Thank you for the opportunity to play with a great track. I have learned a lot through this process. Long may the mix challenge live on.