Mix Challenge

westcoast2 wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 22, 2018 15:39 CEST

Mork wrote: Regarding the waltz, I am talking about the rhythm. It’s like one - two- three, one - two - three (Uff-Ta-Ta is a german thing i guess). I found that groove to be lost in the original mix, mainly because the Keyboard was all „washed out“ (chorus, delay, ?), but besides the HiHat it really moves that groove forward.

At the beginning it is in 3/4 , counted 1 2 3 (Waltz time) with the emphasis (E) on the 1 e,g E 2 3 E 2 3

When the drums start this changes to 6/8 counted 1 2 3 4 5 6. The emphasis is on the 1 with a lesser emphasis on the 4.
E 2 3 e 5 6 E 2 3 e 5 6. Maybe Uff-Ta-Ta uf-Ta-Ta.

On drums for 3/4 you might have Kick 2 3 and for 6/8 kick 2 3 snare 5 6 as in this song.

This may appear to be a subtle change, but has profound implications when dancing or playing. To me 3/4 time feels very rigid compared to a flowing, almost swing like, 6/8. The 'groove' changes as a result.

The keyboard seemed to play a bass note on the 1 & 4 without any particular emphasis therefore, as Franz noted, the hihat also plays a role. Sometimes just before the 1 it does a ta-ta-tat with just taps before the 4.

west

I agree, I started this out as a waltz (hence the title), but at the time I added the drums it became a 6/8. I don't think it would've worked as a 3/4 with drums.

westcoast2 wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 22, 2018 15:39 CEST

At the beginning it is in 3/4 , counted 1 2 3 (Waltz time) with the emphasis (E) on the 1 e,g E 2 3 E 2 3

When the drums start this changes to 6/8 counted 1 2 3 4 5 6. The emphasis is on the 1 with a lesser emphasis on the 4.
E 2 3 e 5 6 E 2 3 e 5 6. Maybe Uff-Ta-Ta uf-Ta-Ta.

Hi west,
you are absolutely right, of course, it’s also stated in the description. But to me it was important to maintain the waltz „heritage“ to get the feeling of the song across. I think the „stiffness“ adds to the bitterness.

Franz wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 22, 2018 14:54 CEST

Hey Mork,

Thank you for your clarification. First your mix I like (it is also close enough to mine) a few execptions: the voices.
The balance between the two is ok but the corrections made on them are excessive: the "sibilants" are much too pronounced
and "the thinning" of the woman's voice makes her voice rather unpleasant. Question of taste ...
Regarding the three times of the waltz, you're right: it is necessary that this particular rhythm is maintained throughout the title
and thus effectively the hi-hat is VERY important (it is carelessly neglected by most candidates).
Listen to my mix and I dare to say that "everything" is there.
once again, good luck

Cheers

Franz

Franz, I listened to your mix and have to say that it‘s absolutely gorgeous! Very beautiful tone! I would have some minor comments to make, but that‘s feses thing to do. I also think we had something very similar in mind but your execution is better by far (which is not an easy thing to admit). I went a little on the more dryish side, because of the description.

Regarding the vocals: Ok, there are some esses left, I take that and also hear it, but there is nothing „excessive“ done. On the other hand the only thing I really dislike in your (like in almost every other) mix is the dark, mumbling female vocal. It‘s really distracting. When I listened to the original the first time I was thinking like „why is she so dark?“ the whole time and couldn‘t really focus on what is really important. I think that is also true for the „average“ listener. If there’s a voice it should be heard and understood, why else would it be there?

To be honest, there‘s still a todo list IF I make it to round 2, it‘s even just a static mix (no automation done yet), because I ran out of time. The esses are definitely on that list!

Cheers
Mork

Mister Fox wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 22, 2018 06:31 CEST

Bouroki wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 22, 2018 02:01 CEST

In the future it will be different

If the Mix Challenge will have a future, that is.

Because the Song Pool is dry. We have no more material for future Mix(ing) Challenges (this game ends by the end of October).
Please reach out! Else we have nothing to go forward.


(FAQ on the Song Pool Campaign page)

Hello Mister Fox,

I have for this time no separate tracks to send, but after i take a look at your website, Would not it be possible to make a mix challenge with the winnings songs from the songwriting contest? It can be fun and positive for the entire website.

Best regards.

Musical greetings

to everyone and especially Mork:

Thanks Mork for your compliment, I appreciate. And I come back to your interesting mix that has put forward an
important problem and often underestimated: the quality of the sound in the recording.
I do not speak of technical quality but of musical quality. A very common problem with voices.
If at first a voice is dark and mumbles, how could we change that in the mix? Mork has demonstrated it very well:
his work is technically remarkable but finds its limits in the artistic result: his female voice has nothing to do with the
original recording and the result in the mix is surprising and offbeat.
One could thus easily conclude that if the voice is marmonante on the track of origin, it is what is marmonante and
must therefore remain it otherwise it would have had to make modifications (artistic) at the beginning.
This is my point of view, are there others?

Cheers

Franz

Since i'm not an award winning mixing engineer, here are my two cents.

I studied acoustic jazzbass and recorded many times , different people in different situations. My recording teacher on university was a specialist in acoustic music and what he teaches is not to push recordings/mixes but to look for the inner core of the instruments sounds and inner musical qualities and bring them forward. This is the most important thing for me since i really adore his recordings. I published some recordings with jazz (very small/unknown) but i'm trying to now learn here, in this forum, to mix popmusic. Its a different way. Which is okay - you just have to know what material you are working on. And here, its wonderfull acoustic session. Well recorded, without too many highs, nice rooms, nice little errors here and there, doesnt matter. I wont ever over-edit this.

J

Franz wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 23, 2018 23:07 CEST

to everyone and especially Mork:

Thanks Mork for your compliment, I appreciate. And I come back to your interesting mix that has put forward an
important problem and often underestimated: the quality of the sound in the recording.
I do not speak of technical quality but of musical quality. A very common problem with voices.
If at first a voice is dark and mumbles, how could we change that in the mix? Mork has demonstrated it very well:
his work is technically remarkable but finds its limits in the artistic result: his female voice has nothing to do with the
original recording and the result in the mix is surprising and offbeat.
One could thus easily conclude that if the voice is marmonante on the track of origin, it is what is marmonante and
must therefore remain it otherwise it would have had to make modifications (artistic) at the beginning.
This is my point of view, are there others?

Cheers

Franz

Franz wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 23, 2018 23:07 CEST

to everyone and especially Mork:

Thanks Mork for your compliment, I appreciate. And I come back to your interesting mix that has put forward an
important problem and often underestimated: the quality of the sound in the recording.
I do not speak of technical quality but of musical quality. A very common problem with voices.
If at first a voice is dark and mumbles, how could we change that in the mix? Mork has demonstrated it very well:
his work is technically remarkable but finds its limits in the artistic result: his female voice has nothing to do with the
original recording and the result in the mix is surprising and offbeat.
One could thus easily conclude that if the voice is marmonante on the track of origin, it is what is marmonante and
must therefore remain it otherwise it would have had to make modifications (artistic) at the beginning.
This is my point of view, are there others?

Cheers

Franz

Hi, another two cents of a non award winning mixing engineer:

Franz, once again we do agree, but regarding my mix I see it the other way around. It was not a technical decision to brighten her vocal up, but a purely artistic one. I wanted the vocals to interact and not feel so detached from one another and this was even more important to me than the technical issues it introduced like sibilants and noise. It's quite a bold decision but my instincts told me that this is how the vocals were envisioned by the client in the first place, but the bad recording stood in the way. The vocals are the absolute stars of this song, they are the song, everything else is "just ear candy". So why even bother if one of the two can't be heard? Of course, re-recording the vocal would obviously be the best thing to do, but I don't think we have that option (or do we? ).
So once again, it's far from being a "technically remarkable" decision (it's just a high shelf ) but a decision to the music above being just that "technically remarkable".

"the result in the mix is surprising and offbeat" - If you compare to the original - yes (it's at least surprising), but not as a first time listener. Again, I find it more "offbeat" to have a dark vocal that is... background? lead? a guitar? I don't know, I can not tell

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that I applied the perfect treatment, it's far from that, but it sure goes into the right (musical) direction and I stand by it.

JonasLasse wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 24, 2018 17:39 CEST

My recording teacher on university was a specialist in acoustic music and what he teaches is not to push recordings/mixes but to look for the inner core of the instruments sounds and inner musical qualities and bring them forward.

That!
Goes with "A mix is done when there is nothing left you could take away", in which I firmly believe. But you also have to know when to push the limits to achieve the desired musical outcome. I think this goes for all genres, you just need to have the right "color palette" to fit the style (this is probably what most of us are here for, new colors).

For example in this song I really struggled with the dynamics that are all over the place and don't play together really well. In Franz' mix I just love how effortless and natural everything plays together (aside from that boomy note ), so he obviously knows his tools and his "colors" that fit this style really well. When this is over, I will come back at you for some infos Franz (if that's okay).

Cheers
Mork

Hi Mork !!

Absolutely agree and with pleasure !

It's actually what I'm starting to appreciate in these mixing competitions, namely real exchanges
on the musical concept in addition to the method used for mixing.
If other candidates want to share their ideas, that would be good, right ?

Cheers

Franz

Phew, that was a lot of work! The overall quality of mixes was really high, very often I couldn't find any real technical problems or glaring mistakes. That made the decision process rather difficult, there were a lot of close calls.

I initially tried using a scientifically valid statistically sound judging scheme based on a spreadsheet, but in the end the sample size was just too big and I just stepped through the mixes and decided what felt best to me and what I think the song should be. Interestingly that part was mostly influenced by the sound of the drums and the vocals.

So here are the mixes that didn't make it to the next round. Thanks for all your work, and I tried to give everyone a little bit of feedback. If you're not in here, it was just plain oversight...


JonasLasse
- warm and round sound, level balance is mostly fine
- like the solo acoustic guitar sound
- echo/room on the male lead feels rather off: it is not plausible why it has that much room and Susan's main vocals not. Also it just doesn't gel with the rest of the mix, it sounds like the singer stands way behind the band in a large room.
- Just a feeling: solo acoustic a bit more to the center.

ManuC:
- good balance and instrument separation
- Good panning and use of stereo field
- I Like the drum sound
- More impact for the chorus, especially the final one
- Accordion at 1:30 is rather uneven and sometimes too loud
- a little bit more volume for the bass?

GGermaine
- sorry, really not a fan of the intro and all the other effects
- balance of the male and female vocal is good
- Kick is too dominant, especially in the beginning
- Bass though seems somewhat tame
- Chorus needs more impact, dynamic difference between verses and chorus isn't there
- I don‘t like the automated reverb on the main voc before the final chorus, seems out of place
- Final chorus: vocals too much in the background

philk
- level balance between the tracks seems fine
- like the accordion sound.
- like my vocals sound and the bass
- it is rather loud though and feels distorted at times, this song should breathe

DimitrisPalantzas
- like the snare sound
- beginning is very quiet.
- pretty much everything is too quiet compared to the drums/snare

Stu B
- like the electric guitar
- reverb on drums is too much for my taste
- Vocals too much in background
- Lead vocals sounds too processed and artificial and kinda "nasal-honky"

delicate
- good panning
- vocals are good
- overall i think it has too much hi end, especially the snare and the overheads/hihat. Too bite-y.
- snare too dominant
- lead acoustic could be more audible

kevin gobin
- I like the electric guitars with the modulation effect
- the chorus has impact
- male and female lead vocals clash somewhat in the center
- overall more panning.
- drum sound could be less roomy for my taste

stilespod
- nice "spaciousness"
- overall good level balance
- male vocals in chorus are rather buried, especially in the last one. compare e.g. to the verses
- male and female lead vocals clash somewhat in the center
- i think there's too much going on in or near stereo center

javipedrocca
- good level and spectral balance
- like the idea with the leslie on the guitar
- song dynamics and
- a bit too much (audible) reverb on the male vocals, they seem too much in the background, even
behind the drums.
- tambourine maybe a tad too loud for my taste
- i think the acoustic solo guitar is a bit too much compressed, i can hear the compression working sometimes


kopia
- like the vocal sound
- like that i can hear all the background vocals
- zebra keys and musicbox somewhat too loud.
- for this style of music the mix is too kick and bass dominant.
- phosphor pad needs hi end taming
- overall, although the vocals are all audible, i think the instruments are often in the
way of the vocals (zebra keys, musicbox, phosphor pad)

willnewton
- like the background vocals in the chorus
- overall good spectral balance
- the whole mix is too compressed and way too loud, especially for this type of music
- I'd prefer the bass to have more impact
- the cymbals in the chorus sound rather annoying (5k-range) and overshadow the vocals
- lead vocals are rather too much in the background and too reverb-y
- the detune modulation effect on the accordion is too much, sounds more broken that vintage.

thomasberg
- overall good mix
- rather true to the demo mix
- the solo acoustic though is completely lost
- the accordion still sounds somewhat nasty and would benefit from some cuts in the hi end (maybe around 4k and 7k)
- the kick I find a bit too boomy, gives me too much of a hip hop feeling
- I think the accordion in the chorus would better be panned away from the vocals.

sergioitasco
- unusual approach which has something to it, sounds very intimate.
- as a consequence every sound is there
- i like that i can hear all background vocals.
- female vocal left sounds honky and could use some qeing of the lower mids.
- overall a little bit of EQ cleanup in the lower mids wouldn't hurt (vocals, ac guitars)
- a little bit more room would be good, too. Doesn't have to be massive.
- problem is: I am not a massive fan of the so-called "beatles"-panning of the sixties. Drums on the stereo sides was never and will never be good-sounding, sorry (I've tried it myself on occasion). If you manage to bring them to the center while keeping the overall balance, that would be good.

westcoast2
- like the intimate feeling of the verses
- like the impact of the bass and most of the drum sound
- ride cymbals in chorus, are just too obtrusive and annoying, need taming
- reverb fade in on vocals before the first chorus doesn't fit
- i think the chorus would benefit from some more panning, the center is very crowded.

richard clarke
- a natural sound that I like
- nice dynamic balance.
- lead vocals sound rather honky, would benefit from some EQ cuts (~300-400Hz) and maybe ~1100
- cymbals in the chorus are slightly too present/annoying
- I think the picked guitar needs to move away from the center, it gets somewhat crowded there.

paulg
- a good mix from the technical side
- But I think you missed the point of the song. this is not a tender ballad about a breakup any more, you tried to convert it into a high energy (well, relatively) pop song with a radio sound. Definitely not what I was going for.
- I would try to reduce the clicky attacks of the musicBox sound. That is annoying
- too aggressive in the hi end
- it is way too loud. it doesn't sound bad for that, but it's too loud. This is already "mastered".

{b]bluesation[/b]
- like the vocal sound
- nice warm sound, good balance
- too much reverb, delay and chorus, especially on Susan's main vocals. this is not what I meant by "no effects orgies"
- Tambourine is too upfront and sonically isolated
- i hear too much of the compressor working on the acoustic lead

digitaldruglord
- good use of stereo field
- has depth and space
- sorry, but the snare sound kills the song for me. It would fit better to a lofi garage band than a tender ballad. Also overshadows the vocals.
- tambourine and kick also too loud/dominant
- for my taste too much chorus on the acoustic picked guitar

MJAMixandMast
- especially like the sound of the accordion and acoustic lead
- warm and tender sound
- both male and female vocals need taming of the breaths and the esses
- the vocals are probably a bit overcompressed
- i think there's a bit of a buildup in the low mids (maybe a bit less 200Hz for the acoustic guitar)

Jeffrey_Wornhoff
- like the natural sound
- good use of stereo field
- snare maybe sounds slightly too "washy" in the chorus
- acoustic solo too compressed, I really hear the compressor working
- I simply don't like the sound of the vocal reverb - sounds too echo-y to me, like in a small room with blank walls.
- something bugs me about the male vocals. it might be a compressor working too much on the transients. Listen to the "still the night keeps on spinning", the "still" and "keeps".

VasDim
- like how the lead vocals sit just in front
- apart from the drums well balanced
- I'm sorry, but the drums kill the mood of the song for me, especially the rather trashy distorted sounding snare. Also the room on the drums doesn't seem to fit the rest of the track. I cited "Us and them" as a reference for a "unobtrusive but present" drum sound. This drum sound is only "present". The rest of the sounds seem rather nice and fitting.

yoruhitp
- like how the drums are "unobstrusive put present"
- overall good level balance
- i think a little bit less hi end around 10k would do the song good
- music box and tambourin sound especially aggressive in that area,I'd tame the transients and put them more in the background
- Susan's main vocals could use some cut in the 300-400Hz area
- chorus could more impact, maybe through volume automation or panning automation of some tracks
- electric guitar in the chorus is completely buried
- there seems to be something phasey going on in the male vocals?

intuition
- like the acoustic guitar sound
- I like the room/spatial feeling
- the accordion moving through the stereo field sounds gimmicky
- overall the mix sounds a bit too aggressive, might need taming in the hi end, say from 7k up
- puhhh. the electric guitar sound treatment, i don't think it it fits the song, sounds too fuzzy and trashy distorted to me

RamonPankow_vitaminx
- nice drum sound, drums and bass work well together
- good level balance
- Susan's main vocal needs some low mit treatment, try some cuts at ~300hz?
- also, they are a bit too loud
- solo acoustic sounds to thin and fizzy

tapwater
- overall nice warm and cozy sound
- good level balance and dynamic feel
- I am not sure why you panned e.g. the acoustic and electric guitar and the accordion exactly the other way round than in my mix. I see no reasoning for that. For no other reason than "I am used to where they where in my mix" I want them back...
- the solo accordion slightly louder and less bitey

dobedon
- like the vocal sound
- chorus has impact
- accordion in the chorus is a bit too loud, as are the rides
- a bit too much effects on accordion and keys for my taste
- cymbals in the chorus might need some taming at 5-7k

Jiankastereo
- level and frequency balance seems good
- warm sound
- male vocals in the final chorus are suddenly rather buried.
- i think you've overdone it a bit with the de-esser on the male lead vocals
- Susan's Main Vocals sound as if she's trapped in a small rest room. Also, they could use some cleanup in the lower mids

MixByKevinWhite
- overall level balance is good
- most instruments have a nice natural sound
- picked guitar is a tad overcompressed
- whole mix seems a bit on the muddy side (2-300Hz)
- I'd cut some low mids on Susan's vocals
- panning of both the male and female vocal away from the center is, well, unusual... interesting try, but I don't think it really works

noogard
- overall good work on the level balance, all instruments are there without getting too much in each other's way
- the decision to distort the Keys and Musicbox is a debatable one. In don't think it's a very pleasant sound.
- maybe the dynamic of the song as a whole song is a bit too even.
- the reverb on the male vocals doesn't sound bad, but it gives the feel of the singer being behind the instruments.
- Susan's Main Vocals are a bit undecisive, uneven level-wise, sometimes they're there, sometimes not that much.

Dave McIsaac
- nice bass
- overall level balance is good
- Snare has too much hi end, a bit too rattling for me
- overall I find the mix a bit too hi end heavy
- Vocals could use some cuts in the lower mids, i think

Piranha
- I'm sorry, but I think with the drum sound you missed a bit the point of the song...good sound, but not for a ballad about a breakup. It overshadows the whole mix, which else seems rather nice
- I like how the chorus has weight and impact
- the final Eguitar in the center steals too much attention from the vocals

parnellij
- pleasant warm sound
- some EQ cuts for the male leads in the lower mids would help remove some of the muddiness
- Accordion is abit annoying in the hi end
- solo guitar seems bit overcompressed

MixByPitta
- level balance is fine.
- like the solo guitar sound
- Drum sound is a too unnatural for my taste, not that fitting for a ballad
- also the "metallic" aggressive bass sound is not right for this style
- Susans Main Harmony very much lacks clarity, it feels like she's singing through a blanket. less low mids, bit more 2-3k
- i found that a slight cut at ~350 and a slight boost at ~3k opened up the mix rather pleasantly

Auxander
- apart from the drums, good levels and stereo width
- the drums overshadow the vocals, too loud and too much hi end
- male vocals seem to come from behind the female vocals

AlexM
- I am not sure whether it is on purpose or something happened, but the whole mix is seriously distorted, it feels (and looks) as if you fed it into a brickwall limiter with at least 10dB of gain reduction. It is hard to say anything else, because it is frankly not really pleasant to listen to with all the clipping.
- i like the sound of the music box, though
- as far as i can say, panning seems fine
- Susan's vocals sound really dampened and muddy, it needs EQ cuts in the low mids but not in the high mids and high end.
- male vocals also need cuts in the lower mids

iMax
- nice low end, I like the bass sound
- instrumental mix is good, level and frequency wise, the weak point are the vocals, they sound rather detached from the rest of the sound stage.
- Susans Main Vocals are very muffled, as if singing through a blanket. less hi end cut and maybe a bit cleaning in the lower mids
- I don't think panning the solo guitar and solo accordion is the best solution
- in the intro I hear the compressor working too much on the picked acoustic guitar

FerdinandWeisz
- like the bass sound
- like the snare sound, but it is a bit too loud
- Susans main vocals doesnt' really fit in, bit too loud and honky
- over the whole mix there seems to be a bit of a build up between ~200-500Hz
- again, putting the solo accordion in the same space as the solo guitar is debatable

erginozler
- like the drum sound
- instrumental mix seems nicely balanced
- picked acoustic guitar on the left feels a bit detached from the rest, though
- balance and placing of the vocals, Susan seems to be standing in front of the male vocals which are too much panned, too

bourouki
- good vocals sound for Susan, like the picked guitar sound
- compact mix,
- the cymbals in the chorus sound really annoying, too compressed? and way too much hi end

tiptoe
- like the solo acoustic guitar sound
- the vocals sound good
- too much hi end altogether and especially on the overheads/cymbals
- I'm sorry, but what were you thinking with the snare drum? It sounds as if you put a pitch envelope on it. For this style of music a completely wrong choice. Doesn't make sense and frankly kills the song for me

Some general notes for round 2:

After listening to all these different mixes, these are some points I realized are important to me:

• very often the drums are too dominant. I don't feel that the drums are the most important part of the song. I mentioned Pink Floyd's "Us and them" as kind of a reference for the drum sound, listen to the drums there. They are present in a subtle way, but never really dominant.
• actually I feel that the bass is the instrument that should carry the song (well, from when it sets in)
• very important I think is the contrast between the verses and the chorus, both in level and in stereo width.
  the chorus is usually - and this song is no exception - the highlight and should stand out as such.
• Regarding Susan's Main Vocals: I don't see them as background vocals, but as she's not singing all the time, it's not a full lead vocal either. A supporting lead vocal, I'd say, or like delicate wrote in hist first post "I wanted to make it sound as she was just behind the main singer, right by his ear, so to say." The right ear, that is, so panned a bit to the left
• I don't like reverb that is too obvious a reverb.
• for some totally irrational reason I prefer the picked acoustic guitar on the left side