Mix Challenge

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I seem to misunderstand this challenge, if I was supplying a mix to someone along with a rough draft as the package contained, I wouldn't expect something that didn't sound like the rough draft, just a cleaner, better balanced version, as an artist/musician has spent many hours creating. Unless this is a remix competition I've entered?
Sorry if this sounds a bit odd, I'm just trying to figure out what is what in order to improve
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I think it is a miscommunication case. When I receive instructions from the artists I try to follow as closely as possible to the instructions, so when the artist says "clean up" that is exactly what I'll do. I'll bring out a mop, a brush, some soap, etc and start scrubbing. And if the artists tell me to cut then they will have to tell me what, where, and when to cut. I have a vague idea of how, so no need to ask. The problem is: are we in agreement that cleaning up and cutting stuffs out are two different things? That is the question now, isn't it? Beside, who are we to decide what to cut? I don't think the artists will spend time and/or money to record something just to be cut out in the end by someone else. And I don't think they will jump for joy if I cut out the wrong one in the wrong place either. I mean now I have to decide what to cut in a song? Isn't that the producer's job? Our job is mixing engineers, not cutting engineers

And yeah, dude. I agree with you. We mix and that is the only thing we do.

EchoOread wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 23, 2020 21:53 CET

And yeah, dude. I agree with you. We mix and that is the only thing we do.

The mix I did, although not that good, was based upon that premise. I found I was trying to spoon in 3-4 baselines and make them legible, together with a variety of drums that peaked in volume in places I wasn't expecting.. I'm someone who makes music and my main decision to join this fun party was to improve, using others music allows me to detach from the ownership and gives me a clearer perspective. Thus hopefully improving my ideas and ideals and if I do get the opportunity to have someone else mix my stuff ( I call it stuff and so would you if you heard it ) I will understand to some extent their needs and processes, Rather than a
Also the chance to hear others takes on the same work and their processing and effect usage.
Please, everyone, don't read this as a moan, as this is probably my 3rd competition and I'm still trying to understand the role I am trying to fulfill.

As an additional thing, would entrants be interested in writing a little on the track which was posted before theirs, just as an aid, normally, a different perspective can shed light on subjects which can be helpful

Hope no one is offended, I'm just a curious mixer

Before we go into Mix Round 2 (which I'll announce shortly after this post), I have to address a couple of things related to the current game, and with an eye on the future of this community. I usually do not go as in-depth, but this month is a special case.

There is a reason why the Rules and Guidelines are linked to over and over. I understand that we will see more and more new faces on the community with each month. Yet I still see a lot of "this rule set doesn't apply to me" or "whoops, didn't see the rules - sorry". You're sadly mistaken, and there is also no excuse for this. In fact, unless it can be proven to me otherwise, we might have our first "caught redhanded" incident of attempted cheating on this community.



Some small statistics

• Mix Challenge #062 had 50 entries
• 1 entry couldn't be downloaded (thenormalone) and is therefore disqualified
• 1 entry has been altered in terms of the arrangement (pitched down, stu b) and is therefore disqualified
• 6 entries have been submitted in the wrong sampling rate or bitrate (lower than 48kHz and/or lower than 22bit) and are therefore disqualified
• 2 entries that were submitted mere 3 minutes apart, from the same IP, and while the mix is significantly different, the documentation clearly isn't (screenshots showed a near identical ProTools setup) - which gives me the impression of "attempted cheating with a second account"
• 19 entries that either clipped (maximum signal strength / dB True Peak) or were mastered (loudness ILK higher -14,9LUFS to a record breaking -7,4LUFS)
• 1 participant being a class act and withdrawing from a possible Round 2 position, because of admitting "I reuploaded my edit several times" (great sportsmanship, SEEL Mixing Farm)

Here are the statistics in PDF form, created with Wavelab 10's Batch Processing / Audio Analysis

MC062 Statistics (PDF)


While I can overlook your go-to workflow regarding "reference levels", it is clearly stated that this game is a mixing challenge, not a mixing and mastering challenge. In fact, this is pointed out again in red bold letters right below the "Words by the Song Provider/Staff" in the second post of each game thread. Preventing a signal exceeding -1dBTP should be easy to accomplish. In fact, here is even a thread about "gain staging" and proper handling of signals. Summing Bus Processing has always been a heated topic on this forum. Although I don't see a problem if it's being used in a tasteful manner (artistically) rather than "pushing loudness" (mastering).

Adhering to the provided sampling rate and bitrate (or higher) has been pointed out for several Mix(ing) Challenges now as well. I don't know if you (the participant) rendered out in 44kHz by accident. But if you did work in 44kHz instead of the provided 48kHz - you actively also altered the source material due to the sample rate conversion. We will always get mixes in either 44kHz, 48kHz and maybe in the future even 96kHz. Switching sampling rates per project is not an issue anymore as it was 10-15 years ago.



A lot of these things are simply "careless mistakes", but these mistakes effectively put you at risk of/into even being considered for Mix Round 2. And some of our Song Providers for the Mix Challenge do start with technical analysis first, sort out which is not within specs (according to given rules), and only then start to listen to the remaining entries while ignoring everything else.

In case of Mix Challenge 062, that is technically 22 entries which did not make it!
Bar minimum 10 entries due to lack of providing a proper link, withdrawing, submitting the wrong sampling rate/bitrate or (attempted) cheating.

It saddens me to see this, but it does add to the learning process for your future edits.




Which brings me to the point of cheating:

⚠	Moderation Message from Mister Fox
	I am hereby disqualifying users KrissK and Lissmk92 under the suspicion of cheating. Not only were you (plural) put out of the pool for MC062 Mix Round 2, you are also suspended from participating MC063/March 2020. Evidence: your entries were mere 3 minutes apart the posts were written in similar fashion, only one paragraph switched around the posts came from the same IP the provided documentation (ProTools screenshots), aside from minor changes (more plugins, 1-2 extra group channels) share a striking resemblance in terms of plugin usage (same positions/type)

While the mixes are still fairly different (I just hope it is a teacher/student situation)... In fairness to every participant, I am not taking cheating lightly. If you are caught, you will be suspended and prohibited to join challenges in the future.

To me, with submitting your edit, you are already a winner. Even if you don't make it into another round, you have participated. You want to learn from the experience, you want to improve. Resorting to such tactics is only detrimental. You're ultimately only cheating yourself.




To everyone using duplicate accounts:

Please consider this a final warning. If you want to get rid of your duplicate accounts, please PM me. This will not result in any repercussions. But please be fair to everyone else on this forum. If I catch you abusing that trust in the future, you will be permanently banned.



Please give me a moment to prepare Mix Round 2...

Thank you for handling the evaluation, Gary.

Ladies and gentlemen, let us kick off Mix Round 2, which will end on Friday, 28-02-2020 11:59pm GMT+1/CET


There is a GLOBAL COUNTDOWN available to check for deadlines.
Just follow this link: Global Countdown (on homepage)



The following 10 participants go into Round 2 (alphabetical order)

GB Real
Green Dog
Jerze
Matik
Mork
Pavel Nebesky
Photonic
Shoma
ShroomFeverish
Wizzo


The feedback to the productions can be found here:
viewtopic.php?p=7074#p7074


If you are unsure what to do exactly with your mix, reach out to the song provider and engage in a conversation here on the forum.



A thank you to everyone, and good luck for Round 2

Mister Fox wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 23, 2020 23:01 CET

[*]19 entries that either clipped (maximum signal strength / dB True Peak)

I'm scratching my head here, my metering indicates a level of -1.1 dBTP. What could be the cause? I can read that the EBU calibration standard allows for a 0.6 dB (+0.2/-0.4) tolerance. This is just very strange. Any idea why this could be?

Cheers,
Louis

Congrats to those who ascend round II !
Good luck.

Thanks Gary for fast evaluation, and for liking more than 10 entries.
Hoping for more comments, whenever they come.

Thanks Mr.Fox, must have been a hard time.
Glad to be an accepted candidate.

@Frequency Painter, EXPOSE tool (by Mastering The Mix) says you have -0.6dB Peak! Good old Cool Edit says -0.64dB. I always check with both.
Not sure which tool gave you a wrong reading? DAW meters normally can be switched between Peak and VU.
Are you sure about the gain staging? Seems a lot of red everywhere. I would like to see you in the top 10, as the basic sound is lovely. Just be a bit softer with the faders.

@Green Dog, can I ask you, how did you make that snare in the vocal middle part, it has some serious bottom, but I found that sound nowhere in the raw tracks, and the demo does not have it either, but it all sounds more like a much thinner rim shot or whiplash.
(I think I have more questions about other mixes, but for this night, my screen time is over.)

Congrats to all who went through to rd2!

Thanks to Mr. Fox for keeping an eye on all of the entries. I know that is a lot of time and effort, and I appreciate all you do to keep contest fair and going.

I had some thoughts on the discussion before the rd2 announcement were made:

Ultimately, I agree with what all were saying. It’d be nice to be able to have more direct conversations with the song provider, and even a relationship. As sound mixers/engineers, and many musicians I’m sure, we are capable of being more involved in production, and creative collaboration. However, because this is a competition with many (many, many) entries, I think it is paramount to maintain a level playing field for all. This is, after all a mix challenge. So it makes sense that no production changes, or mastering techniques are allowed. I’d love to be a part of a production challenge, but I don’t see how this could be possible with 50+ contestants. As a song provider, I couldn’t imagine having to build relationships with 50+ collaborators in 3 weeks. And, even if you could build all of those relationships, how would you ever pick a winner having been so involved with all the mixes?

As it stands, I am just grateful to be a part of this community. Getting to work with such a wide range of styles, personalities, and cultures is absolutely wonderful.

Thanks,

SNarowitz

So, I've probably said enough already, but
Should, I, in future just go for a mix that pleases me, reducing or muting stems that I don't feel add to the mix I want to achieve?
I'm somewhat lost, I read the rules and try to adhere, should i, in future, if I participate submit my own take of what I think works.?
As there are many paths that can be taken in order to make a mix. Big reverb, stripped down bare, more bass, less atmosphere, more ambient, chilled out., the list is endless, almost.
Would love to hear other's opinions expressed here, or should this be taken to another post?

I've asked a lot of questions, I'll leave and hope that others can give me some clarity

Frequency Painter wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 24, 2020 00:50 CET

I'm scratching my head here, my metering indicates a level of -1.1 dBTP. What could be the cause? I can read that the EBU calibration standard allows for a 0.6 dB (+0.2/-0.4) tolerance. This is just very strange. Any idea why this could be?

dB Full Scale (dBFS) is not the same as dB True Peak (dBTP). Very basically spoken, and you probably know this already, dB True Peak uses oversampled analysis to find out if your signal overshoots.

According to your posted screenshot, you're using ProTools. I'm not that familiar with ProTools anymore - but unless the meter bargraphs are set to PPM 5ms (IEC 60268-10 Type I/DIN), which might give you a -1,1dB readout (due to transients slipping through)... you should have gotten a -0,65dBFS readout (notice dBFS - ProTools doesn't have dBTP on the summing bus IIRC).

I just pulled your project into Wavelab again, and shows me: -0,6525dB as highest peak for both dBFS and dBTP.

Also - the +-0,2dB/-0,4dB tolerance is not quite correct anymore (I think you got this from the Fabfilter forum, and the old Limiter "True Peak" test page). It depends on the oversampling ratio used. If it's 4x, then the tolerance is +-0,5dBTP. But if it's 8x, we already talk +-0,16dBTP. Izotope tools should(!) show dBTP - at least the Ozone Analyzer should (I don't know at what oversampling ratio though).

For reference: Then again, if you (for example) mixed at a reference level of -18dB = 0VU, and your VU range is between +-3VU (aka: -21dB to -15dB avg signal strength, 300ms ballistics, unweighted -- aka a VU), then only extreme transient processing should result in exceeding -1dBFS or even -1dBTP. Most of the time your signal doesn't even go higher than -2dB though (speaking from experience).

Your mix is technically not clipping "yet" - but definitely in the red zone and outside the in the rule set recommended "limitations". As mentioned in my long last post: if I would have been the song provider, I wouldn't have disqualified you for that in this mixing game (unless your mixdown clearly exceeded -14LUFS), just asked you to have an eye on that in the future.

Snarowitz wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 24, 2020 02:08 CET

I had some thoughts on the discussion before the rd2 announcement were made:

Ultimately, I agree with what all were saying. It’d be nice to be able to have more direct conversations with the song provider, and even a relationship. As sound mixers/engineers, and many musicians I’m sure, we are capable of being more involved in production, and creative collaboration. However, because this is a competition with many (many, many) entries, I think it is paramount to maintain a level playing field for all. This is, after all a mix challenge. So it makes sense that no production changes, or mastering techniques are allowed.

While the rules clearly state "no mastering" or "do not change the arrangement, unless otherwise stated", there is nothing that holds you off from asking questions. I always encourage communication between the participants and the song provider. Sometimes it works, and really well on top. Sometimes not. I really have no control over this.

Snarowitz wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 24, 2020 02:08 CET

I’d love to be a part of a production challenge, but I don’t see how this could be possible with 50+ contestants. As a song provider, I couldn’t imagine having to build relationships with 50+ collaborators in 3 weeks. And, even if you could build all of those relationships, how would you ever pick a winner having been so involved with all the mixes?

This is why we tried the Remix Challenge ever so often.

Else, a pure "production challenge" is definitely the monthly recurring Songwriting Competition. Complete with a very, very detailed premise each month, and plenty of audio examples to get inspired from (if you're not familiar with this genre). Maybe take another look.

Clueless wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 24, 2020 02:32 CET

So, I've probably said enough already, but
Should, I, in future just go for a mix that pleases me, reducing or muting stems that I don't feel add to the mix I want to achieve?
I'm somewhat lost, I read the rules and try to adhere, should i, in future, if I participate submit my own take of what I think works.?
As there are many paths that can be taken in order to make a mix. Big reverb, stripped down bare, more bass, less atmosphere, more ambient, chilled out., the list is endless, almost.
Would love to hear other's opinions expressed here, or should this be taken to another post?

I've asked a lot of questions, I'll leave and hope that others can give me some clarity

It is quite simple really - and this is why the "Words by the Song Provider" exist, and why I try to get as many information for the mix packages as possible.

You take and edit the provided multitracks "as is". You are not allowed to omit tracks unless it's... a stereo track where there is no stereo content in it, you've split it into multi-mono and discard one of the channels. Or if there are like 5 microphones used for recording a sound source, and you decide "blending 2 of them is enough to get the same over-the-top sound". Another example would be "clean cutting" a drum set - if you're after that super sterile pop rock drum sound rather than more vintage with various type of mic bleed.

Everything (else) is basically working by your gut instinct. You can either go by the provided "demo mix", which is setting a certain mood, or read up on (hopefully) provided references or hints in which direction this could go, then shape your own sound. As in: big reverb or not, a balance between instruments, blending similar sound sources into one "sound cloud", etc.

Or as I wrote it for every mix(ing) challenge: try to create a mix that complements this production - in your own style.

This is what the Mix(ing) Challenge is trying to teach... the same is happening in the real world. You... have an own style of mixing, your own "sound". A possible client approaches you because of that particular reason. The Mix(ing) Challenge is basically a "Mass Audio Engineer Shootout"




I'm reposting this topic (Clueless) in the Mix Challenge - General Gossip Thread. I invite everyone to continue the conversation there to keep the thread a bit more streamlined.

White Punk OD wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 24, 2020 01:18 CET

@Green Dog, can I ask you, how did you make that snare in the vocal middle part, it has some serious bottom, but I found that sound nowhere in the raw tracks, and the demo does not have it either, but it all sounds more like a much thinner rim shot or whiplash.
(I think I have more questions about other mixes, but for this night, my screen time is over.)

Hi White Punk OD,
thanks for question. I think it will be easier if I show my FX chain. Here it is:
Screenshot 1
Screenshot 2

First of all I cut and copy snare to another track. Then I mixed together processed snare and drum loop. Usually I do not use so many plugins on one track, but in this situation I have no choose because we can't use additional samples. I hope I answered your question

Andrejs