Mix Challenge

Posted: **Sun Sep 22, 2024 10:42 CEST**

burakxmusic wrote: ↑
Sun Sep 22, 2024 00:30 CEST
@Mister Fox Thank you for your valuable feedback. I updated the song and explained why I mixed it this way. I hope you will support and support my innovative approach.see original post.
Kind regards

I appreciate the update. Now we can get a better picture of what tools you used, to get to the sound that you did.

I invested a couple of hours to take a closer look (listen) and tried to maybe adjust some things for a better listening experience. Yes, your new mix is "more centered". But the way you've used phase shifted, chorused and micro-delayed signals, might not work on a lot of playback mediums. My impression is, that you tried a somewhat "made for headphones" mix (or ear-buds mix, rather -- which explains the focus on upper mids and sometimes really excessive bass). This is my only explanation as to what is happening. A lot of the instruments are pushed "behind" your head, rather than spaced "around" (for example the "blip" synth in the last third of the song)

Here is an attempted "fix", based upon the m4a file you provided (you didn't provide a WAV file this time). A lot of work went into this, so let me please go a bit more into detail as well...

phpBB [media]

File download, WAV file, 32MB, 44/24

To follow along, I also provided screenshots.
(please note: the screenshots will be auto deleted in about 2 months)

The first thing I noticed with your new mix, is that it's very low on signal this time. It's been at -31 LUFS ILk (loudness), and the maximum signal signal strength has been -12,4 dBTP. Before I started working, I boosted the signal by at least +9dB so that I have more reasonable threshold settings, and the analyzers I've used could have a better resolution as well.

The following screenshot shows a comparison between the original mix (boosted by +9dB), and the readouts after my applied "edits". This is basically a frequency specific correlation meter. It shows which frequencies drift too far into "negative values" (out of phase), which can result in phase cancellation, or other issues on playback mediums. Although I can't say what would happen on a surround setup - since I don't have one with discrete speaker setup like that on hand.

As you can clearly see, the stereo field is too wide, the focus is "in the back" (phase inverted). So the first tool I used, was to fix the lowend (which made the song more mono compatible, therefore translate better on most playback devices) by "monofying" it up until 95Hz. I also "narrowed" the stereo field from 100% to 85%. With the follow-up edits I did, the stereo width balanced itself out again.

Next plugin in series was a band-limited saturator that focuses on the midrange. This in turn tamed some overall harshness. I then follow up with a Linear Phase EQ, reducing the sub frequencies by about -1,5dB, shaping the vocals a bit at about 5,76kHz (mid only), and reducing some very harsh kick clicks at about 15kHz (sides only). The EQ is also automated at 2,85kHz with a narrow Q to reduce the harshness of the vocals in the mid channel (this filter is only used during the middle section of the song -- the vocals were very nasal).

I'm then running 2 dynamic EQ's in series. The first one only processes the mid signal, focusing on 1,55kHz, boosting about +3dB. However, I'm using a special feature of MDynamicEQ, which is adding harmonics to this particular frequency band. This balances out the +3dB boost (making it less noticeable) and basically "ripples" over the next couple of octaves, reducing the harshness of the mid frequencies. The second dynamic EQ runs in stereo mode and only responds to the overly loud kick drum sub frequencies, reducing it by about -2dB every time it hits. This is adding some motion, while also taking care of the excessive lowend.

Just for experimenting purposes, I then ran the signal through a wide-band compressor. I wanted to know if a gluing effect would add to this production. It didn't, but a side-effect was taming the still aggressive kick clicks. The compressor is only reducing about -1,2dB of gain every time the kick hits.

Sidenote: one thing I noticed with your new mix, is that the initial kick drum of the "low frequency" section hit is not there -- this was not due to me "editing". Maybe this is another point for a possible adjustment, to have a better transition.

Finally, I follow up with a more "broad"/subtle sound shaping EQ, once more in Linear Phase mode. About 90% of the mixes I work on might need a slight dip in the 650Hz range (mid only), which is what I did. I tried to add some "fairy dust" with a boost of 14kHz (mid only) while also attempting to bring out the masked hi-hats (this sadly didn't work in the long run). I then added back some "side" content by subtly boosting with a high-shelf at 6,7kHz. And finally, for experimental purposes, I wanted to know what would happen if I boost the sides around 3,3kHz... usually this introduces a harsh and nasal feeling. In this case however, it brought out the percussive work as contrast to the saturated mid channel.

Here is the full signal chain and the settings I've used.

The final steps in this signal chain were another gain boost of about +8dB, and a limiter array to not only bring the signal to the right loudness, but to also (mostly only) tame rogue peaks. I could have pushed it to -14 LUFS ILk (which is the recommended maximum for the Songwriting Competition), but I opted to stay with -16 LUFS ILk... basically only "clipping away" peaks.

Please note:
This is my interpretation how I would try to make your edit louder and usable on more devices. Pulling this edit into mono (mono compatibility check) does translate better (instruments are not as lost), and running the mix through sound design tools to simulate other playback devices (e.g. AudioThing Speaker - testing: smartphone, earbuts, old TV, boombox) also results in a better listening experience. You can actually hear a more balanced kick drum, have a "hint" of bass (due to the saturation), and the vocals are less harsh.

Should you get back to your mix agian... I would really dial back on the chorusing and phasing effects, maybe even make the vocals less harsh (give them back a touch more low-end frequencies). Bar minimum, fix the mono compatibility (still important to this day). And maybe push the mix into a better loudness area between -18 LUFS ILk and -14 LUFS ILk.

You've created a very interesting song - this is just what I'd do to elevate it.

Also... please remember to check the filename (see filename template), and while a submission in m4a isn't frowned upon... the higher the mix quality, the better the final analysis.

Once more, welcome to the community.

Posted: **Sun Sep 22, 2024 11:11 CEST**

APi_ZZ wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 21, 2024 11:53 CEST
I picked up your valuable suggestions and updated the track -- see original post.

Thank you for taking a closer look and editing your entry.

Just two things: can you please clarify what you mean with MM Repatoire?
And... just a hint: the filename template...

Dasein wrote: ↑
Sun Sep 22, 2024 03:11 CEST
Hi, I just randomly discovered this forum, so I will just randomly upload this song. ... Probably this song doesn't meet all the requirements to participate in the contest, but I just wanted to share it with you.

First and foremost - welcome to the community. I hope you will enjoy your stay and we'll see you participate in more games in the future.

It is great to see you step out of your comfort zone and submit something to the public. This already is a "win-win" in my book.

Unfortunately, you are right, the song does sadly not meet all requirements to participate. The biggest factor is, that this song was created and uploaded in July already, while the task for each Songwriting Competition, is to create something "new", within the month of the game, even if it's an old song redone (new instrumentation, new mix, etc).

I can offer you two options:
The first one, your entry will be listed among in the global song collection, I can run this through the usual statistic checks (a download of your entry would be nice). However, as part of the rules... other participants can give you feedback, but your entry won't be available for a vote and the bonus point mechanic.

The other option is... if you still have the project on your HDD, why not add to it? Redo "part of it", create something new, make a slightly different mix based upon received feedback, push it more towards "the specs" of the game. Then your entry could be treated like a regular one.

How does that sound?

Feedback wise:

I like the concept. One clearly hears the turmoil in the arrangement (melodies). But the (synthetic) Acoustic Guitar/E-Piano hybrid is a bit too loud (especially on small speakers, it's also very apparent on studio headphones), and feels like being in a different environment to the strings (think "small room" vs "scoring stage").

If you still have the time to revisit this, maybe try something like Musiclab RealGuitar (acoustic) as a guitar (EQ usage is recommended), or switch out the guitars from Acoustic to Electric (Clean) towards the end of the song to simulate an "evolution" of things. This is to contrast the E-Piano (which is subtle in the background). Maybe even refine the arpeggio and chords of the guitar a bit (again: something like Musiclab or AmpleSound guitars could help you). Towards the 5:20min mark I also hear something that could be more "musicbox like" (I think you already tried that with your original mix), or maybe go with an acoustic piano. Plenty of options, maybe even adding a synth bass (think of the lines of sine wave based bass), just to add "bottom" and a more warm yet still lonely feeling.

The general idea here is to have less frequency clash. This way, the instruments can speak "by themselves", until the chaos can turn into a cohesive mix ("acceptance" or "controlled chaos" in your song).

Again, great concept. If you got the time... work with it still. Now that you have a new perspective.

Please also check out post #003 with each Songwriting Competition, as this also offers a great source for additional tools. Especially if you're on a budget. Instrument Demo times are a thing as well.

You still got 2,5 days, maybe something works out.

Posted: **Sun Sep 22, 2024 17:09 CEST**

This month, I wrote an instrumental in a melodic metal style, with a slow tempo.
I tried to express the psychological distress linked to depression, anxiety, sadness, anger but also the desire to get out of it. I think metal music lends itself well to this.
and it was a good opportunity to improve my mixing skills and try out some new mixing tips. I got some good advice, thank you.

► Show Spoiler

Posted: **Sun Sep 22, 2024 19:28 CEST**

Dear fellow challengers and Mister Fox.

On the subject of the challenge of this theme, which is recurring every year, it always makes me think of music to meditate or to find peace. In this case, I wanted to make music that I would like to go to school after work, trying to forget the problems of the day and take refuge in my thoughts. After making a big shout, the school plays this music.
Description of what I did:
The theme is divided into 4 parts, or rather, it is a part that is repeated 4 times with minimal variations of instruments that play different notes in the 4 parts. I put a lot of layers of pads and gradually added some percussion elements and some effects.
I've worked hard to get a mix that's pleasing to the ear.

Well, I hope you like it and give me ideas to make it better or highlight what you would have done differently.

Thank you colleagues.

(translated with google)

Equipment:
DAW:
Reason 13.0.2d69

Reason Instruments:
Monotone Bass Synthesizer
Grain Sample Manipulator
Polytone Dual-Layer Synthesizer
Thor Polysonic Synthesizer
Europa Shapeshifting Synthesizer
NN-XT Advanced Sampler

Reason Effects:
Reason Equalizer
RV7000 MkII Advanced Reverb
Synchronous Effect Modulator
Stereo Tool
RV-7 Digital Reverb

Reason Players:
Scales & Chords

Reason Utilities:
Gain Tool
Pulsar Dual LFO

Reason Packs (like Presets) o Presets:
New Loops Shimmer Pads for Grain

Reason Rack Extension:
ProjectSAM Orchestral Sampler Filmscore Instrument

Other instruments outside of Reason:
Native Instruments Kontakt 7

Kontakt Library:
KONTAKT Luftrum Lunaris
KONTAKT Analog Dreams
KONTAKT Kompose Audio Arcturus
KONTAKT Dark Intervals Patmos
KONTAKT Luftrum Bioscape
KONTAKT Waverley Instruments Synthetic Materials

Other effects outside of Reason:
Plugin-alliance Black Box Analog Design HG-2MS
Waves Vitamin Sonic Enhancer
Slate Digital Fresh Air
Minimal Audio MorphEQ
Rob Papen RP-PAN

Other tools:
HoRNet Plugins HoRNet HarmoniQ
HoRNet Plugins HoRNet Sleek
iZotope Ozone 9 Standard
Plugin Alliance SPL HawkEye
HoRNet Plugins HoRNet VHS

Posted: **Sun Sep 22, 2024 20:24 CEST**

@Mister Fox Thanks for your feedback, I really appreciate it.

Refering to the song, I still have it on my HDD and you are right with the E-Piano (Native Instruments Kontakt 7 - Lithic Piano and an Atmospheric that sounds in the background from 2:03), the rest of the instruments are Strings from Spitfire Audio. All of them in the free version, since my budget is very limited.

I will test the idea of adding/replacing with an electric guitar or a synth bass towards the end of the song.

About the E-Piano, do you feel is too loud compared to the rest of the instruments or just too loud in general?

Posted: **Sun Sep 22, 2024 22:46 CEST**

Mister Fox wrote: ↑
Sun Sep 22, 2024 10:42 CEST

burakxmusic wrote: ↑
Sun Sep 22, 2024 00:30 CEST
@Mister Fox Thank you for your valuable feedback. I updated the song and explained why I mixed it this way. I hope you will support and support my innovative approach.see original post.
Kind regards
I appreciate the update. Now we can get a better picture of what tools you used, to get to the sound that you did.

I invested a couple of hours to take a closer look (listen) and tried to maybe adjust some things for a better listening experience. Yes, your new mix is "more centered". But the way you've used phase shifted, chorused and micro-delayed signals, might not work on a lot of playback mediums. My impression is, that you tried a somewhat "made for headphones" mix (or ear-buds mix, rather -- which explains the focus on upper mids and sometimes really excessive bass). This is my only explanation as to what is happening. A lot of the instruments are pushed "behind" your head, rather than spaced "around" (for example the "blip" synth in the last third of the song)

Here is an attempted "fix", based upon the m4a file you provided (you didn't provide a WAV file this time). A lot of work went into this, so let me please go a bit more into detail as well...

phpBB [media]

File download, WAV file, 32MB, 44/24

To follow along, I also provided screenshots.
(please note: the screenshots will be auto deleted in about 2 months)

The first thing I noticed with your new mix, is that it's very low on signal this time. It's been at -31 LUFS ILk (loudness), and the maximum signal signal strength has been -12,4 dBTP. Before I started working, I boosted the signal by at least +9dB so that I have more reasonable threshold settings, and the analyzers I've used could have a better resolution as well.

The following screenshot shows a comparison between the original mix (boosted by +9dB), and the readouts after my applied "edits". This is basically a frequency specific correlation meter. It shows which frequencies drift too far into "negative values" (out of phase), which can result in phase cancellation, or other issues on playback mediums. Although I can't say what would happen on a surround setup - since I don't have one with discrete speaker setup like that on hand.

As you can clearly see, the stereo field is too wide, the focus is "in the back" (phase inverted). So the first tool I used, was to fix the lowend (which made the song more mono compatible, therefore translate better on most playback devices) by "monofying" it up until 95Hz. I also "narrowed" the stereo field from 100% to 85%. With the follow-up edits I did, the stereo width balanced itself out again.

Next plugin in series was a band-limited saturator that focuses on the midrange. This in turn tamed some overall harshness. I then follow up with a Linear Phase EQ, reducing the sub frequencies by about -1,5dB, shaping the vocals a bit at about 5,76kHz (mid only), and reducing some very harsh kick clicks at about 15kHz (sides only). The EQ is also automated at 2,85kHz with a narrow Q to reduce the harshness of the vocals in the mid channel (this filter is only used during the middle section of the song -- the vocals were very nasal).

I'm then running 2 dynamic EQ's in series. The first one only processes the mid signal, focusing on 1,55kHz, boosting about +3dB. However, I'm using a special feature of MDynamicEQ, which is adding harmonics to this particular frequency band. This balances out the +3dB boost (making it less noticeable) and basically "ripples" over the next couple of octaves, reducing the harshness of the mid frequencies. The second dynamic EQ runs in stereo mode and only responds to the overly loud kick drum sub frequencies, reducing it by about -2dB every time it hits. This is adding some motion, while also taking care of the excessive lowend.

Just for experimenting purposes, I then ran the signal through a wide-band compressor. I wanted to know if a gluing effect would add to this production. It didn't, but a side-effect was taming the still aggressive kick clicks. The compressor is only reducing about -1,2dB of gain every time the kick hits.

Sidenote: one thing I noticed with your new mix, is that the initial kick drum of the "low frequency" section hit is not there -- this was not due to me "editing". Maybe this is another point for a possible adjustment, to have a better transition.

Finally, I follow up with a more "broad"/subtle sound shaping EQ, once more in Linear Phase mode. About 90% of the mixes I work on might need a slight dip in the 650Hz range (mid only), which is what I did. I tried to add some "fairy dust" with a boost of 14kHz (mid only) while also attempting to bring out the masked hi-hats (this sadly didn't work in the long run). I then added back some "side" content by subtly boosting with a high-shelf at 6,7kHz. And finally, for experimental purposes, I wanted to know what would happen if I boost the sides around 3,3kHz... usually this introduces a harsh and nasal feeling. In this case however, it brought out the percussive work as contrast to the saturated mid channel.

Here is the full signal chain and the settings I've used.

The final steps in this signal chain were another gain boost of about +8dB, and a limiter array to not only bring the signal to the right loudness, but to also (mostly only) tame rogue peaks. I could have pushed it to -14 LUFS ILk (which is the recommended maximum for the Songwriting Competition), but I opted to stay with -16 LUFS ILk... basically only "clipping away" peaks.

Please note:
This is my interpretation how I would try to make your edit louder and usable on more devices. Pulling this edit into mono (mono compatibility check) does translate better (instruments are not as lost), and running the mix through sound design tools to simulate other playback devices (e.g. AudioThing Speaker - testing: smartphone, earbuts, old TV, boombox) also results in a better listening experience. You can actually hear a more balanced kick drum, have a "hint" of bass (due to the saturation), and the vocals are less harsh.

Should you get back to your mix agian... I would really dial back on the chorusing and phasing effects, maybe even make the vocals less harsh (give them back a touch more low-end frequencies). Bar minimum, fix the mono compatibility (still important to this day). And maybe push the mix into a better loudness area between -18 LUFS ILk and -14 LUFS ILk.

You've created a very interesting song - this is just what I'd do to elevate it.

Also... please remember to check the filename (see filename template), and while a submission in m4a isn't frowned upon... the higher the mix quality, the better the final analysis.

Once more, welcome to the community.

Hi mister @Mister Fox
First of all, I offer my respects. Thank you for dealing with my project in such detail and for your great suggestions. What you did inspired me and I made some adjustments to the phase. I focused on the positive phase and tried to equalize it. I also adjusted the volume to the appropriate settings. I hope there was a good result. Thank you in advance. see original post.
Kind regards

Posted: **Mon Sep 23, 2024 01:34 CEST**

Dasein wrote: ↑
Sun Sep 22, 2024 20:24 CEST
I will test the idea of adding/replacing with an electric guitar or a synth bass towards the end of the song.

About the E-Piano, do you feel is too loud compared to the rest of the instruments or just too loud in general?

What is definitely too loud, is the lead "Guitar" instrument. The "E-Piano" as additional layer later on is actually fairly quiet. I would actually have more "synth bass" throughout the song, but that's just me. And changing from acoustic to electric towards the end of your production is just an idea.

Since budget is always a thing, this is why I actually mentioned post #003, which always links to more resources (like the new megathread). This one lists a lot of free resources (including Spitfire Audio's LABS, some material for Kontakt, etc), places where you can get affordable tools, etc. Might be worth a look still.

So yeah... if you can remake/enhance your song within the deadline still... then you're officially part of this month's game round.

burakxmusic wrote: ↑
Sun Sep 22, 2024 22:46 CEST
Hi mister @Mister Fox
First of all, I offer my respects. Thank you for dealing with my project in such detail and for your great suggestions. What you did inspired me and I made some adjustments to the phase. I focused on the positive phase and tried to equalize it. I also adjusted the volume to the appropriate settings. I hope there was a good result. Thank you in advance. see original post.
Kind regards

Great that the feedback was useful for you.

Although for you as well -- please keep the Filename template in mind.

Code: Select all

As of this moment, you're using:
SWC085-burakxmusic-wav.wav

Please use something like:
SWC085__burakxmusic__EchoesOfTheNight.wav
or
SWC085__burakxmusic__Echoes_Of_The_Night.wav

PLEASE NOTE: You do not need to re-upload/change the link... you can edit the filename directly on GoogleDrive / Dropbox

Posted: **Mon Sep 23, 2024 15:38 CEST**

I updated,thanks.

Posted: **Mon Sep 23, 2024 16:09 CEST**

I decided to fix some things.

Posted: **Mon Sep 23, 2024 21:12 CEST**

Here is the final version of my song Little Blue Ships, created especially for this challenge.

My song highlights the darker side of depression but hopefully in a more poetic delivery. It is written in a minor key and has a slightly odd progression and chorus melody (at least to my ears) but I think it fits the song.
The lyrics have hidden meanings that you can decipher if you read/listen carefully.
This is my second attempt at the songwriting Mixchallenge and I've been enjoying having a reason to write and complete a song in a short timeframe. The lyric writing process is something I love as I prefer my lyrics to by less conspicuous in their story delivery.
If you're interested, here are some questions to consider about the lyrics:
- who disappeared into the pages and what is the book? (verse 1)
- what are the little blue ships? (chorus)
- What is the monster? (chorus)
- What are the brass babies? (chorus)

Thank you again, for the opportunity, Mr Fox and co.

PRODUCTION

► Show Spoiler

LYRICS

► Show Spoiler

Mix Challenge

SONGWRITING COMPETITION - SWC085 September 2024 - Winners announced

SONGWRITING COMPETITION - SWC085 September 2024 - Submissions until 24-SEP-2024 23:59 UTC+2/CEST

SONGWRITING COMPETITION - SWC085 September 2024 - Submissions until 24-SEP-2024 23:59 UTC+2/CEST

Re: SONGWRITING COMPETITION - SWC085 September 2024 - Submissions until 24-SEP-2024 23:59 UTC+2/CEST

Re: SONGWRITING COMPETITION - SWC085 September 2024 - Submissions until 24-SEP-2024 23:59 UTC+2/CEST

Re: SONGWRITING COMPETITION - SWC085 September 2024 - Submissions until 24-SEP-2024 23:59 UTC+2/CEST

Re: SONGWRITING COMPETITION - SWC085 September 2024 - Submissions until 24-SEP-2024 23:59 UTC+2/CEST

SONGWRITING COMPETITION - SWC085 September 2024 - Submissions until 24-SEP-2024 23:59 UTC+2/CEST

Re: SONGWRITING COMPETITION - SWC085 September 2024 - Submissions until 24-SEP-2024 23:59 UTC+2/CEST

Re: SONGWRITING COMPETITION - SWC085 September 2024 - Submissions until 24-SEP-2024 23:59 UTC+2/CEST

Re: SONGWRITING COMPETITION - SWC085 September 2024 - Submissions until 24-SEP-2024 23:59 UTC+2/CEST