Mix Challenge

Overall: I did take the theme into account when voting. I realize that a fighting game can really have anything as a soundtrack, I was looking for something with a fair bit of intensity.
Also, I valued things that blended instrumentation over things that kept mostly to one genre in sound design.

Richard Clarke:
The biggest thing I was missing here was variety in sound design. It felt like a metal track, with some electronic bits. It lacked expression, too; a lot of the sounds felt rather stagnant (granted I'm a little sensitive to this after my last entry).
Also, the track was under 1:30, which is the minimum length as stated in the rules and guidelines...

OllyAudio:
This doesn't feel like a fighting game to me. It's calm. I like the piece, it's fairly well done, but it doesn't fit my concept of the theme at all.

The Exponent:
You establish the right atmosphere from the start. It maintains a good intensity while retaining clarity.

Clueless:
Neat track, I like the concept. The percussion drowned in reverb and off to the right doesn't quite work for me, but it certainly adds an interesting effect.
It has a neat minimal-ish feel, but given the theme, I'm curious how it would sound with some low brass / string support.

OnTrackP:
I really loved the mix of brass and electronics. I think some of the FX didn't quite fit, but all in all this blew me away.

DoctorBob:
The heavy brass gave this a really excellent feel. The only thing I have to say is that your intro feels a little disjointed from the rest of the piece.

J I L L I A M:
It's a neat track, and fits for a fighting game, but it doesn't have much variety in instrumentation and style as was requested by the topic. I enjoyed the production though, has some nice creativity in design.

TrojakEW:
The percussion is quite nice, the horns, strings and chorus fit well with the most synthesized elements. Style is good. I would have liked to see more synth work / experimentation with the sound, though.
I'm not a fan of the spoken parts, they were more of a distraction as I tried to figure out what was being said.

The Never Scene:
I loved the metallic sounds.
Really, I thought all of the sounds were well exectued and helped advance the piece. You let orchestral elements shine while still keeping to a unique style and I thought the blend was good.

toadhjo:
You achieved a really nice balance of timbres and sounds. The composition is good. I could even see this as a fighting game track, even if it's only for a training stage. The only thing I was missing was a broader variety of sounds. Having mostly plucked strings and light percussion, it confined the emotional dynamic of the piece to a fairly small range.

UprightJoe:
I particulularly enjoyed the section around 1:50, where the tension breaks out. I liked the themes, but after a while they got a little old. Varying them in more ways, moving to other keys perhaps, or just taking your contestants across a broader range of musical settings would help advance the battle.

andreas.bollden
Strong start, I like it all until the whole thing starts pumping for the last minute. It's as if everything is sidechained to kicks that don't quite fill the space the sidechain makes until the very end. It's more disturbing than interesting to me; perhaps if the effect was less extreme, I might appreciate it more.

It was hard to make an ordered list. The music was all pretty good,
10: The Never Scene
9: OnTrackP
8: DoctorBob
7: TrojakEW
6: The Exponent
5: J I L L I A M
4: andreas.bollden
3: Clueless
2: toadhjo
1: OllyAudio

0: UprightJoe
0: Richard Clarke

Yes, my voting shows some bias, but these are the tracks that I think pulled it off the best.

Small addition:
1) there are 13 entries, but I only listed feedback for 12 because one of those 13 is my track...
2) sorry I don't have a lot of production feedback. I have barely entered the world of mixing, and don't feel willing to offer feedback on those topics. Effects and style and composition, however, I am more familiar with. While my feedback stems from my perspective and opinions, it is something I am more aware of, and feel better able to respond to.

Good to see more people around here. Many known "faces" from KVR OSC. There are some interesting melodies there. I always trying to score based on overall quality but here we also have theme that show how we can deal with composition for certain situation. Some of us are good at certain style and theme but not everyone is versatile. So the challenge here is different from that in OSC.
Recently I just started to use some analytic tools in order to improve my mixing and mastering skills. Actually this is first time when I use loudness meter and tonal balance control. Ears are not what they have been before so I hopping that numbers should help a little in future when I get used to it. I already learn first lesson. Never leave those tools active on master channel when rendering. For me in uploaded render this tools active produced DC offset. So my soundcloud track have DC offset L -0.239% and DC offset R -0.278%. After disabling this vst on master my DC offset is zero. But I didn't re uploaded track again. Also I found that soundcloud uses original file name after download so apology for that. I run some statistic through all tracks so I include some numbers for you and your tracks and I hope I didn't make mistake while writing those numbers. For those who doesn't know much about this I include short description (for more info use google):
Momentary Loudness - measures the loudness of the past 400 Milliseconds.
Short Term Loudness - measures the loudness of the past 3 Seconds.
Integrated Loudness - average loudness measured over entire duration of material
Loudness Range LU - the statistical distribution of short term loudness
True Peak - accurate measurements of (possible) intersample peaks.

I also hope I didn't misspelled your names/nicknames like some of you did.

J I L L I A M - Stage 7/ Trapped Within The Total Recall-Reality
Track have definitely feel old school VGM for fighting stage. Simple theme but many of those older tracks have this kind of simplicity so it is like back to old school 2d fighting games from Neo Geo where players needs only rhythm to get they max combo. Mix need more work. There is some distortion and even some clipping because track is louder then it should be. You push compressor, limiter too much. Stage is there and instruments have they own space. Polished mix can improve overall feel and atmosphere of track.
Max momentary loudness -5,3 LUFS
Max short term loudness -7,3 LUFS
Loudness range - 1,1 LU
Integrated loudness -8,9 LUFS
True peak L +1.28db - yup clipping here
True peak R +0.79db - and here too
DC offset L -0.004%
DC offset R -0.005%
Frequency around 600-800 need boost and around 8600 needed to be cut down

The NeverScene - Infernal Waste
Great track. Interesting introduction a and very good mix of different styles of music. Slower tempo but it have enough energy and to feel adrenaline rush produced during real world fighting (this comes from my real fighting experience I'm martial arts maniac). Cool rhythm guitar like in most of your tracks. Intro section regarding mix and stage feels little centered like the instruments played from other room. When rhythm guitar is introduced stage changes and it sound much better.
Max momentary loudness -9,2 LUFS
Max short term loudness -9,6 LUFS
Loudness range 8,2 LU
Integrated loudness -12,2 LUFS
True peak L -1.02db
True peak R -1.05db
DC offset L -0.000%
DC offset R -0.000%
Frequency across whole spectrum feels balanced.

DoctorBob - Fight For Flight
Very cool track. Theme gives fight between fighters with super powers. That women vocal is nice but it broke "fighting spirit" that in real life fight mean loosing. I like how tracks changes whole time how different elements and instruments change the "pace" introducing "chaos"- it is like in real fight when you don't know what come next so you await nothing and everything.
Max momentary loudness -8,3 LUFS
Max short term loudness -9,2 LUFS
Loudness range 8,6 LU
Integrated loudness -13,9 LUFS
True peak L -0.30db
True peak R -0.30db
DC offset L +0.004%
DC offset R +0.002%
Frequency around 600, 1200 and 3000 are little harsh so they need to be gently treated.

RichardClarke - Fight!
Weird and fun combination of almost chiptune with heavy metal riffs. It is like new breed of style so nice experiment. Track make me feel like the fighters started fight and the one one them simply run away and second fighter stand there gazing clueless what is happening. Even length of track support this feel. This can be interesting element in game when your opponent (AI) have only little life left just run away you are forced to start again same round but with different fighter but with only life you have left from previous fight .
Max momentary loudness -15,3 LUFS
Max short term loudness -16,1 LUFS
Loudness range 14,6 LU
Integrated loudness -19,0 LUFS
True peak L -4.11db
True peak R -3.70db
DC offset L -0.031%
DC offset R -0.030%
Quite balanced regarding frequency range across spectrum but still something is missing. Some mojo because it feels empty.

ollyaudio - Its Dawn
Track is interesting but it feel more endgame credits theme. No fighting spirit there. Very relaxing. Stage is very narrow. Most of instruments are placed in center. Solo violin is nice but it should have more dynamic range. Mix is little louder then it should be. Track should end at 3:42 because next part doesn't bring anything new to the table.
Max momentary loudness -6,6 LUFS
Max short term loudness -8,6 LUFS
Loudness range 6,6
Integrated loudness -10,4 LUFS
True peak L -0.23db
True peak R -0.29db
DC offset L 0.009%
DC offset R 0.009%
Frequency around 150Hz need to be removed, adjusted Freq from 400 to about 1500 needs boost.

ontrackp - It’s Not A Dream
Beginning of track with this bell like synth arp section is really harsh. It need harmonics, some air. Theme is nice and interesting. That brass part make it feels like fight in carnival. Second part starting around 2:24 feels like fighting ends and celebrating starts. Great stage and instrument placing.
Max momentary loudness -8,1 LUFS
Max short term loudness -9,4 LUFS
Loudness range 6,8 LU
True peak L -0.09db
True peak R -0.03db
DC offset L -0.020%
DC offset R -0.018%
Integrated loudness -10,7 LUFS
Frequency across the whole range seems balanced.

andreas.bollden - Final Battle
Really really like the music. Love the track. Simple but very atmospheric and beautiful. Too bad that even with change that start in 1:28 it feels more like theme that build tension before conflict. More like they are awaiting for signal that will start the fight.
Max momentary loudness -6,0 LUFS
Max short term loudness -6,4 LUFS
Loudness range 11,8 LU
Integrated loudness -10,5 LUFS
True peak L +0.74db - well looks like some clipping is here
True peak R +2.74db - and here even more clipping
DC offset L -0.002%
DC offset R -0.002%
Frequency around 100hz need gentle cut.

Clueless - Fighting Game
Nice theme and idea but it sounds more like too long intro part of whole track. I was awaiting whole time when fighting starts. It is more like character presentation theme before actual fight. When camera moves across the stage and around the players in orrder to indtroduce them. Interesting choice of instruments with kind of industrial feel.
Max momentary loudness -8,6 LUFS
Max short term loudness -11,6 LUFS
Loudness range 8,1 LU
Integrated loudness -15,1 LUFS
True peak L +0.14db - well some clipping here
True peak R +0.25db - and here too
DC offset L -0.0039%
DC offset R -0.040%
Frequency across the whole range feels balanced but because of instruments characters it feels metallic.

toadhjo - Spar in the Bazaar
Very very good stage. Great instrument placing. Track is interesting but it is more like scene for thief trying to steal from people in bazaar. Too relaxed even for spar match.
Max momentary loudness -10,7 LUFS
Max short term loudness -11,8 LUFS
Loudness range 7,4 LU
Integrated loudness -14,3 LUFS
True peak L -0.50db
True peak R -0.50db
DC offset L +0.009%
DC offset R +0.008%
Frequency around 100 and 400 need some treatment. Need decrease them a little.

The Exponent - What are you afraid of
Cool track full of energy. Like it a lot. But it is theme suited more for some extreme freerun/parkour video and not for fighting. Also good for as motivation track for training session for weightlifters. Even it is imple repeating theme it doesn't feels repetitive. It just feed you with power whole time.
Max momentary loudness -8,7 LUFS
Max short term loudness -9,9 LUFS
Loudness range 6,3 LU
Integrated loudness -13,4 LUFS
True peak L -2.53db
True peak R -1.83db
DC offset L -0.002%
DC offset R -0.001%
Frequency across whole spectrum feels balanced maybe little cut around 8000HZ.

UprightJoe - Sky vs Sea
Nice track with good mix and stage. You can really feels depth here. No fighting there for me. Maybe theme for training session similar as Exponent track only with different mood.
Max momentary loudness -10,8 LUFS
Max short term loudness -11,9 LUFS
Loudness range 2,9 LU
Integrated loudness -14,0 LUFS
True peak L -0.11db
True peak R -0.11db
DC offset L +0.007%
DC offset R +0.005%
Frequency really feels balanced. There is enough lows to bring some power but also mids and highs for air. I mean overall feel not just numbers.

Leonaard Bowman - Dueling, Dancing
Very nice track with again great composition. But it feels ... too relaxing. More like exploring theme. Journey through country. But as I said track itself is very very nice. Some parts have kind of mechanic feel. Like instruments lacks more dynamic range.
Max momentary loudness -11,2 LUFS
Max short term loudness -12,7 LUFS
Loudness range 8,4 LU
Integrated loudness -15,5 LUFS
True peak L -1.12db
True peak R -1.06db
DC offset L -0.000%
DC offset R -0.000%
Frequency across whole range feels balanced. Maybe gentle cut around 2000Hz.

So here is my voting. It was really hard to choose between my feel about fighting music and overall quality. If there was no theme restriction voting will be different and I can tell you that all of you do great work no matter the result.

10pts - The NeverScene - Infernal Waste (because it have everything balanced and it really fit the theme)
9 pts - DoctorBob - Fight For Flight (yes fighting is there and as I said like those "instant changes" that support this uneasy feel during fight)
8pts - ontrackp - It’s Not A Dream (because interesting mood that have similar feel of uneasiness like Doc's track)
7pts - The Exponent - What are you afraid of (yes not that much fighting as fightning but still fighting spirit for other training sessions)
6pts - UprightJoe - Sky vs Sea (similar reason as track above, only that Exponent track give me more power)
5pts - andreas.bollden - Final Battle (the tension is here and feeling something bad is comming but trailer ends and you don't know how conflict ends or if it even starts)
4pts - J I L L I A M - Stage 7/ Trapped Within The Total Recall-Reality (it represent state of mind during fight, with better mix and some pace change it can be a lot of better)
3pt - RichardClarke - Fight! (because you run out of fight )
2pts - Clueless - Fighting Game (too bad that fighters didn't start they fight)
1pts - toadhjo - Spar in the Bazaar (there is some tension in theme)
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Leonaard Bowman - Dueling, Dancing (I like the track don't get me wrong, interesting melody and great composiiton but for me it is too far from any type of danger, tension not mention the fighting. It have opposite feeling like exciting journy that your heart beat faster not because of fear but because of excitement.

ollyaudio - Its Dawn (it is even further away from theme then Leonaard track, but still nice track)

Wow! Thanks for taking time to do the analysis and post the numbers. How are you analyzing the frequency balance? Are you purely using your ears, using a tool, or some combination of both?

TrojakEW wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 26, 2019 20:14 CET

The Exponent - What are you afraid of
Cool track full of energy. Like it a lot. But it is theme suited more for some extreme freerun/parkour video and not for fighting. Also good for as motivation track for training session for weightlifters. Even it is imple repeating theme it doesn't feels repetitive. It just feed you with power whole time.
Max momentary loudness -8,7 LUFS
Max short term loudness -9,9 LUFS
Loudness range 6,3 LU
Integrated loudness -13,4 LUFS
True peak L -2.53db
True peak R -1.83db
DC offset L -0.002%
DC offset R -0.001%
Frequency across whole spectrum feels balanced maybe little cut around 8000HZ.

Firstly I'd like to you thank you immensely for the very detailed analysis, constructive fedback and appreciation. Much respect for that! But saying that this track doesn't fit a SciFi Fantasy fighting game sound track, does sound very interesting! You're only the second person now who's said it. Of course, interpretations do vary and I respect your opinion. However, may I request you to try play this in the background of a game stage for Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter or any other game you enjoy and let me know if you still feel the same way. Cheers!

And I really liked your track. Goodluck!

My post about frequency was more about tonal balance for entire track. Good tonal balance doesn't mean that track is without problems. Some resonance and harshness may occur even track seems balanced. For example ontrackp - It’s Not A Dream seems to be balanced but synth instrumnet at start is really harsh. Analysis found that he cut most of lows and high with (looks like 12db lo and hipass filter?). This hipass removed harmonics in high range so without them it sound "bad".

As I said in my post I just started to use tools since I know my mix is weak and I want to do everything to improve it. I trust my ears and tools I use now show that my ears are still good. But indetifing problem is easy. Solving is something different. So to answer I use my ears but now with support from alaytics tools to find the problem. I have done AB referencing to see "problems" in all tracks. Referencing is good but finiding good reference track to fit the same style and instruments range used is not easy too. Especially to find good reference track. Tonal balance is good for start. To identify problematic area and.

Also trusing your ears mean you are used to your equipment. You use it to listen to all kind of sound materials for long time so you know limits of this equipment. You know how to used specific gear frequency repsonse even without seeing the curve because you used it everytime not just for mixing and mastering. Know your enemy.

The Exponent wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 27, 2019 07:29 CET

But saying that this track doesn't fit a SciFi Fantasy fighting game sound track, does sound very interesting! You're only the second person now who's said it. Of course, interpretations do vary and I respect your opinion. However, may I request you to try play this in the background of a game stage for Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter or any other game you enjoy and let me know if you still feel the same way. Cheers!

Well most of listener looks at tracks as normal listener. I'm looking at it as fighter. I'm mean real fighter with real fighting experience even in ring. I'm know how it really feels inside. Most of track used in games are made to fill the mood based on visual but it doesn't really mean it represent act of violence (No mater how you look at it fighting is agressive act and pain nothing less). Graphical artist create visual for scene for example budhist temple so musician made a theme to fit visuals. It is hard to connect Budhist temple with agression so they will make ralexing and peacefull track. I'm not saying that it is bad but I feels it doesn't represent how it really feels. This is my view. We all have our opinion based on our life experience. We do live different lifes so we have different views on everything. I cannot judge based on someone else experince. I also do freerun and parkour (well I'm sport maniac) thats why I post about it and your track make me do the crazy jump. It is again based on my real experiecne.

TrojakEW wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 27, 2019 08:09 CET

Well most of listener looks at tracks as normal listener. I'm looking at it as fighter. I'm mean real fighter with real fighting experience even in ring. I'm know how it really feels inside. Most of track used in games are made to fill the mood based on visual but it doesn't really mean it represent act of violence (No mater how you look at it fighting is agressive act and pain nothing less). Graphical artist create visual for scene for example budhist temple so musician made a theme to fit visuals. It is hard to connect Budhist temple with agression so they will make ralexing and peacefull track. I'm not saying that it is bad but I feels it doesn't represent how it really feels. This is my view. We all have our opinion based on our life experience. We do live different lifes so we have different views on everything. I cannot judge based on someone else experince. I also do freerun and parkour (well I'm sport maniac) thats why I post about it and your track make me do the crazy jump. It is again based on my real experiecne.

That's a fascinating perspective. Of course, interpretation of themes and such is totally subjective and can at times be poles part. I appreciate you sharing your opinion.

But the point of video game soundtracks and stage design is that if every stage looks and sounds aggressive, it defeats the whole point of having diverse backdrops and characters in these game stages. I do agree that there needs to be a certain intensity in the soundtrack but the mood/theme/intensity needn't be the same. And a fighting video game needn't be played only by fighters alone so need to also factor that into this. But yet again, it's all subjective.

Cheers, and well done with your track

The Exponent wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 27, 2019 08:41 CET

But the point of video game soundtracks and stage design is that if every stage looks and sounds aggressive, it defeats the whole point of having diverse backdrops and characters in these game stages. I do agree that there needs to be a certain intensity in the soundtrack but the mood/theme/intensity needn't be the same.

Thats why I said that be versatile composer is not for everyone.I'm not versatile and I'm even not a composser or musician . Aggression deosn't mean that track need to by dark and represent violence through fast tempo or specific aggresive sound but rather elements that help you feel the this fighting spirit. I hear many fighting soundtracks that ca do this without sounding too agressive but they are able to bring somwhow this feel. But I also found OST that are absolutelly not suited for this types of games. For example I really like way how Nobuo Uematsu can bring this fighting spirit to track when needed. But my favorite track from him is not about fighting but about - Find your way (piano version) .

TrojakEW wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 27, 2019 09:32 CET

For example I really like way how Nobuo Uematsu can bring this fighting spirit to track when needed. But my favorite track from him is not about fighting but about - Find your way (piano version) .

Cool track!

Just a quick note about what I was thinking with the middle "ethereal female voice" section. I was thinking that during a fight the combatants often retreat and re-group - and if you can imagine one in a space type environment, then the switch to a more or less silent environment would seem to fit. The voice is supposed to say, "all is quiet, but, you know, and I know, something is going to happen real bad, real soon" and then of course, the track goes "boom" with the brass section cutting in, big fight, and then to add to the overall BIG theatre, the strings come back in as well with the earlier theme, before the quick string driven ending !!!

If that makes any sense at all?

dB