MIX CHALLENGE - MC099 August 2024 - Mix Round 2 in evaluation

[MartialFromentin]

I found quite weird to be disqualified just to have added harmonies. The problem is not to be disqualified, because the goal of this challenge is to learn, and when we fail, we learn.

But I just want to talk about the MC091: there were 2 vocals tracks in this song (1 main track and 1 double track, exactly the same), and the voice really reminded me the Alice in chains sound. So I decided to try to get something close to AIC vocals. And in my MC091 mix, I added a 3rd harmonies tracks...

Just 2 important things about that:
1. I haven't been disqualified
2. In this feedback, the song provider wrote: "The extra harmonic on the vocal sounds creative. …nice."

Moreover, in this MC099 description we could read:
"This production features a couple of curve-balls. Most notably with only having 1(!) vocal track, and a limited amount of multi-tracks. Your task is to create a coherent mix that embodies the original idea, yet also features your own unique sonic fingerprint."

Honnestly, the first thing coming to my mind by reading that was: "OK, just one vocals track, let's try to enhance and to thicken the vocals...".

Some participants added harmonies, some others didn't... In my opinion, it doesn't matter and let the song provider choose between the different approaches. If he doesn't like extra harmonies then these mixes won't be part of the round 2, I think it's just as simple as that...

[cpsmusic]

Some participants added harmonies, some others didn't... In my opinion, it doesn't matter and let the song provider choose between the different approaches. If he doesn't like extra harmonies then these mixes won't be part of the round 2, I think it's just as simple as that...

Not sure that's really fair to those of us who would have liked to add harmonies but didn't because they knew it's against the rules.

[zed999]

Sometimes I wonder if it would be better not to provide any descriptive text at all, just have the present clear rules , the tracks and a demo mix. I often misinterpret the descriptive text so when I saw that this month in particular the text/rules seemed to be at odds I decided not to enter. It seemed to me if I strictly adhered to the rules the provider would not like my mix and if I acted on my interpretation of the description I'd be disqualified. Catchy tune though.

[MartialFromentin]

Some participants added harmonies, some others didn't... In my opinion, it doesn't matter and let the song provider choose between the different approaches. If he doesn't like extra harmonies then these mixes won't be part of the round 2, I think it's just as simple as that...

Not sure that's really fair to those of us who would have liked to add harmonies but didn't because they knew it's against the rules.

Maybe I'm wrong, but the rules don't clearly say "adding harmonies is prohibited". For instance:

"The contestants have artistic freedom in terms of mixing (no limits on used modules/effects, neither hardware nor software) - within given boundaries (see add-on rules of the corresponding challenge thread)"

"It is allowed to edit and to a certain extend even mangle the source material to improve the production (e.g. pitch correction within given boundaries, timing/phase correction within given boundaries, re-amping of bass/guitars if DI track were present, vocal comping, noise gating/strip silence, etc), as long as this does not result in drastic sound design and a complete new sound (e.g. morphing one sound into another one - example: flute into trumpet) - unless otherwise stated. Please also consult the FAQ section (most notably Q9 to Q11)"

The problem is probably "within given boundaries"...

We can also read: "The provided arrangement must remain the same. Do not change the song key, do not add an additional beat or instruments (e.g. replay a guitar), move parts around and therefore change the arrangement. Unless otherwise stated (i.e. radio mix, loops being allowed for reordering, creative audio effects like glitching, etc). The audio demo can be a guide, but be advised that it might be a different revision from the material that has been given to you."

I don't consider that adding harmonies change the song key, because if you're comfortable enough with music theory, a 3rd or a 5th will stay in the good scale. But I agree that it' a point of view, a rules interpretation.

And when Mr Fox wrote "The topic was not "add harmony lines" (no matter the means - like copy/paste/pitch adjust, Melodyne or similar, AUX effect with "pitched up/pitched down" vocals, in one case even similar chord progressions based upon the song key). Unless the client and I (as host) allow you to do that and it is an essential part of a current running game. Which is actually far form being an easy task - even if MIDI chords or similar would be provided. This is also akin to the topic of "Drum Shell Sample Replacement Tools" -- it boils down to accessibility (these tools are not cheap, only a handful of users can afford them), and the expertise of a participant. Some might have no issue with that at all and basically child's play. For others, it might be impossible to pull off since they neither have the tools they need, nor do they know what they're doing. Hence why this was not a "special task" in any game so far. I want the Mix(ing) Challenge to be accessible to everyone!" I don't really agree.

1. "The topic was not "add harmony lines"": I agree, but it was not "don't add harmony lines" neither
2. "these tools are not cheap, only a handful of users can afford them": don't agree, Pitchproof is free, Mautopitch is free, Graillon is free, MXtune is free...
3. "Some might have no issue with that at all and basically child's play. For others, it might be impossible to pull off since they neither have the tools they need, nor do they know what they're doing.": I agree, it depends on the music theory knowledge, but music theory is quite easy to learn. And I think this MC099 controversy about the harmonies is good because knowing music theory for mixing is important to me.

As I didn't consider adding harmonies to be unfair, I did it (and I already did it for the MC091 without disqualification). We just had different boundaries or rules interpretations.

[cpsmusic]

My understanding of "the rules" basically boils down to "you can fix stuff that's already there, but you can't add anything that would be considered a 'new musical part'" - at least that's how I interpret them. A harmony is probably too close to "a new musical part". A double (added via a plug-in) is more like "enhancing something that's already there". But yes, it's a grey area. Because I've been around the challenge for a while I've seen this issue come up before so I tend to err on the side of caution.

[MartialFromentin]

Yes, as you said: "a grey area" and I understand that you consider an harmony being a new musical part. It would be a good thing to know if the song provider allows harmonies or not for each MC to avoid this kind of controversy for the future.

[LowlandsWave]

There was 1 vocal track. You create a second version of that vocal .... with a different voicing, that's not grey.

The rules here do not define mixing! They just define mixing on this platform, to create a level playing field.

[MartialFromentin]

There was 1 vocal track. You create a second version of that vocal .... with a different voicing, that's not grey.

The rules here do not define mixing! They just define mixing on this platform, to create a level playing field.

No, there's a gray area, otherwise how to explain this high "harmony disqualification" rate? Some of us simply felt that the harmonizer was an effect like any other.

But it doesn't matter, we don't play our lives. It's not about cheating or something like that, I'm OK if I'm disqualified. The goal is to learn things, not to win a good harmonizer plugin!

I only wanted to bring details about the harmonies choice, and I wanted to do that because of what happened for the MC091: I harmonized a voice track and I have not been disqualified.

[Mister Fox]

Okay, I think it's time to retire this topic.

The rules have been clear on the topic of "adding harmony lines" (3rds, 5th, Octave) vs micro-pitching ("pop vocal chorus trick", with or without additional "ADT"). Yes, there is a trend in modern pop music lately to have "low octave" vocals as "dirt layer", or maybe a top layer that sounds like borderline Chipmunks. However -- there were no green lights given for this game.

Maybe we'll get a chance for something like that in a future Mix(ing) Challenge. We will cross that bridge once it's happening.


Also, @MartialFromentin -- two reasons why you were NOT disqualified for MC091
1) I didn't listen to all entries at that time -- this is a time consuming process, and also technically not my job
2) the "client" at that time liked your idea, that is correct. But also played by the rules. He didn't select your entry for Mix Round 2.

I might re-start this topic in a dedicated thread. However, I think we're covered everything for the time being.


Can we please focus on general mix tips for each other again?
Thank you.




I also just updated the Statistic Sheets again.

This is a follow-up to @Strange's posts. I could take a closer look and can now confirm that the user did not break any (big) rules. One of the reasons why I assumed that there is more going on, is because of certain used vocal effects (the main culprit being MAutoPitch, which is a super aggressive pitch correction tool -- and it's very prominent in the mix). The "pitch shifted" reverb that was talked about, was only used as transition effect and not for whole phrases. Unfortunately, some of these layered sounds gave that particular wrong impression.

The Disqualification Rate therefore changes from 39,02% (32 disqualifications) to 37,80% (31 disqualifications).

[Isa]

Participants for the Next Round
1.@alanvaldez
2.@artisan.au
3.@Cadence Soundlabs
4.@Davias
5.@Dodgingrain
6.@Eastpark Sound
7.@JanLefr
8.@jaThum
9.@M.P.3.
10.@Michael_K
11.@Madmav
12.@PonySho
13.@Spyart
14.@useruser
15.@wkanegis

Wild Cards
3.@Cadence Soundlabs
5.@Dodgingrain
7.@JanLefr
12.@PonySho
15.@wkanegis

Critique to top 15 Participants:
1.@alanvaldez
:09s The vocal is noticeably cut at the low end. Revise EQ or any cuts you have made. Don't cut too much of the low end. At best you can decrease it with a bell curve.
:30s The hi-hats are way too loud and seem screechy. Find a way to lower them. Or make some high or low end cuts.
:50s I think the vocal should be a bit louder. Increase the vocal by about 2db or so.

2.@artisan.au
:45s the Shakers are really loud. Decrease the volume or make some cuts.
1:10s Same with the hi-hats they're too loud.
I notice that there is a lack of reverb on the Marimba. Make it more noticeable with either a combination of delays and reverbs.

3.@Cadence Soundlabs
0:02s I hear some strange hissing noise right when the bass drum plays. Find where that is and decrease it or cut it out.
0:15s Vocal seems a bit drowned out. There seems to be a lot muddiness with the instruments. Find some space for the vocal by making cuts to the other instruments. Also the guiro is too loud decrease drastically at least ny 2.5db.
Also try to avoid using pitch correction where it is very noticeable. You may need to decrease the speed.
2:00s Maybe instead of delay on vocal use a reverb instead. Try a reverb of at least .2s decay.

4.@Davias
0:12s Vocal seems a bit drowned out. There seems to be a lot muddiness with the instruments. Find some space for the vocal by making cuts to the other instruments
0:47s piano far too loud. Decrease drastically at least by 2.5db.
1:45s The guitar is probably in the way of the vocal. Consider finding some cuts here.
2:50s Is that reversed reverb? It doesn't sound pleasant try lowering it down or using a delay instead.

5.@Dodgingrain
0:28 The pitch correction of the vocal here doesn't sound good. It is noticeable and a bit too robotic. Consider decreasing the speed, or leaving it unchanged.
1:45s the trumpets are in the way of the vocal. Consider cutting the trumpets for some space.
2:45s the piano sounds a bit distorted. Consider increasing the reverb here or using some sort of delay instead.

6.@Eastpark Sound
0:02s Why does the bass drum sound like that? It sounds almost electronic. It should sound a bit more acoustic. Maybe decrease the volume or reduce any effects you're using.
1:00s consider adding some sort of reverb or delay on the marimba. Make it almost sound like a pad.
2:45s the piano sounds a bit distorted or too loud. Consider increasing the reverb here or using some sort of delay instead and decreasing the volume.

7.@JanLefr
0:15s Tune correction is noticeable here. Consider decreasing the speed, or leaving it unchanged or continue to revise tune pitching.
0:28s No Harmony please
1:15s try not to double the vocals like that. Instead of doubling try using some sort of delay or reverb instead to highlight the chorus.

8.@jaThum
:15s The vocal is noticeably cut at the low end. Revise EQ or any cuts you have made. Don't cut too much of the low end. At best you can decrease it with a bell curve.
0:45s The guitar delay should really stop once the first verses happened. It's a bit too distracting.
1:45s Guiro way too loud. Decrease drastically at least by 2.5db.

9.@M.P.3.
0:15s guiro and shaker far too loud. Consider cutting some of the frequencies or lowering it. also the vocal seems to be cut at the low end. At best try not to do that.
0:45s Piano a bit too loud. Decrease drastically at least by 2.5db.
2:00s It's very hard to hear but I can hear like a doubling of the vocal that's almost like an octave. Try not to double the vocal like that. It sounds robotic and alien.
2:53 Detuning at the end of the song is strange. Try not to do that. Do something else like the fading of the piano.

10.@Michael_K
0:02s The guitar seems really wide. Try not to make it too wide during the verses. Make it less wider.
1:19s Marimba a bit too loud decrease by 4db.
0:44s I think the drums are a bit too loud. Decrease them by about 2db or 3db.

11.@MadMav
0:14s Tune pitching is very obvious try to make it more subtle. By decreasing the speed, or not using it. (I did not use autotune)
1:00s Try using a delay or reverb on the marimba. Try to make it more pad-like.
2:15s Consider decreasing the volume of the piano by about 3db.

12.@PonySho
You changed the arrangement, and it sounds more like a remix. But I'm interested what would happen if you mixed without changing the arrangement.

0:02s I hear some strange hissing noise right when the bass drum plays. Find where that is and decrease it or cut it out. Also you changed the arrangement by shifting some of the audio clips and putting the piano at the beginning.
0:26 You changed the arrangement again, but it works.
0:45s Sounds like you removed the breathing. Doesn't sound nice, just leave them in.
1:11s "Falling" double is a bit robotic. Just don't use it or do something else.
2:00s Some of the samples aren't playing? It works, but a bit strange.
2:39s "Falling" double is a bit robotic.

13.@Spyart
1:02s I'm not sure what kind of effect your using on the vocal effect but try to make it a bit more dry.
0:08s That delay on the guitar is really distracting, try using something else instead. Maybe decrease the time it takes to move from the other audio channels. Or using a different sound effect.
2:08s could you add some sort of delay to the vocal and try emphasize on the words "Falling".

14.@useruser
0:03s Guitar a bit too loud decrease it by like 3 or 4 db.
0:47s I'm not sure what kind of effect your using on the vocal effect but try to make it a bit more dry. Also it seems the low end is cut a bit. Try not cut too much of it.
0:56 the drums are a bit too loud maybe decrease by 3db.
1:41s Guiro a bit too loud, maybe decrease it by 3db.

15.@wkanegis
0:02s There is some strange clicking noise I can hear on the bass, try to reduce or remove them. It might be part of your effect, not sure what it's called maybe make it a bit more drier and just consider using a delay.
0:40s The mid-bass seems to be muddying the mix. Consider just using distortion, decreasing the volume, or making some cuts.
1:53s the drums are a bit too loud here. Decrease them like 3 or 4db.



Autotune or Pitch Correction
It sounds like a lot of the participants wanted to use auto tune or pitch correction. I don't use auto tune or pitch correction, but it seems like it's a popular choice, so I will be providing the piano track and midi file for the notes. (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... y5TONYmhPP)
I remember someone saying the my vocals were sliding a lot, and I completely agree. Don't think pitch correction would work well here. Or at the very least, it would difficult to manually edit the notes.

u]"Creative" things I heard in mixes that caught my attention[/u]
- It seems to me that there needs to be some clarification on what I meant by "creative." I was looking for alternative mixes of my music that would have something unique about it. This could be a distortion, delay, or other effect that I did not use on my original song.

The following effects I heard caught my attention and I suggest that those who had effects to still have them. If you didn't use these effects, that’s fine and you can use the following effects as a source of inspiration. But try not to copy other mixers, make sure if it sounds like it fits in your mix.


- Delay on marimba. For some reason the marimba does not sound like the original in the song. This is probably because there was a dry/wet knob that was similar to the knob a synthesizer would be like. It was a digital instrument (with real samples) so that may have been why. Some of you added a delay.
- Distorted Bass Guitar. I thought this was interesting and it leaned to more of a pop-rock sound.
- Some effect on the snare. Some of ya'll put something on the snare. It was probably some sort of compression or reverb.


Common Mistakes
- The vocal was sometimes too loud. Or either drowned out by the other instruments. In other genres this may be acceptable and a creative choice, here I was not looking for that.
- Sometimes a bit too dry. This might be from a lack of adding reverb or forgetting to add something "creative" to the mix.
- Robotic voicing or doubling of voice. I remember hearing doubling that was a bit too distracting.
- Distracting instruments. This might be because the drums were too loud or there was a lot of panning that distracted from the vocal or main instruments.